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Llamas
02-19-2012, 01:09 PM
http://lgbtlaughs.tumblr.com/post/17885896175/fattiesinlove-as-sequential-art-project-in

Click the image and read away! Please, mario, inform us all of how accurate this is. I love being enlightened by these things! :D

In related news, this is hilarious and I love it.

KickHimWhenHe'sDown
02-19-2012, 01:12 PM
It seems to purely have good intentions, but it sounds a little cheesy.

Llamas
02-19-2012, 01:45 PM
It seems to purely have good intentions, but it sounds a little cheesy.

You're... joking. Right?

yarock
02-19-2012, 02:03 PM
This thread is not sensible. Nothing against you llamas, but this thread is just not sensible. Now I thought to make a contra-thread named "I thought ilovellamas would enjoy this" and post this picture (http://e1202.hizliresim.com/u/m/2vscd.jpg), but it would be dumb as this thread. You gotta let it go sometimes.

Llamas
02-19-2012, 02:05 PM
This thread is not sensible. Nothing against you llamas, but this thread is just not sensible. Now I thought to make a contra-thread named "I thought ilovellamas would enjoy this" and post this picture (http://e1202.hizliresim.com/u/m/2vscd.jpg), but it would be dumb as this thread. You gotta let it go sometimes.

Huh? When I read the pamphlet, the first thing that came to mind was, "this sounds like something mario spaghettio would say. I wonder if he'd agree with it?" Of course it's sensible. If you read the pamphlet and know who mario spaghettio is, it makes sense.

yarock
02-19-2012, 02:22 PM
Of course he'd agree with it, that just suits with him. We all know how he is, thus this thread is not sensible.

Llamas
02-19-2012, 02:24 PM
Man, you're reading way too much into this. There's very, very few threads being made. I thought the pamphlet was rather funny satire, especially because a lot of people who actually think that way would agree with it, despite it being satire. That's all there is to it. This wasn't supposed to be some amazing thread.

Lizardus
02-19-2012, 02:36 PM
The twink one looks more like a nerd or a geek with fingerless gloves. Probably rides a bike on his way to his DnD sessions.

KickHimWhenHe'sDown
02-19-2012, 02:37 PM
You're... joking. Right?

Joking about it being cheesy? Or about it having good intentions? I was joking about neither.

It does sound cheesy and it does sound like it want the best for the children of those parents.

Llamas
02-19-2012, 02:52 PM
The twink one looks more like a nerd or a geek with fingerless gloves. Probably rides a bike on his way to his DnD sessions.

The bear doesn't look much like a bear, either. Almost a jock, but not nearly big enough.


Joking about it being cheesy? Or about it having good intentions? I was joking about neither.

It does sound cheesy and it does sound like it want the best for the children of those parents.

About it having good intentions. It's a joke; satire. And if it was real, how is trying to scare people out of who they are and convincing them to live a lie "good intentions"?

Baldwin
02-19-2012, 03:16 PM
Because it gets them into heaven, perhaps?

I seriously have nothing against your extreme left-wingedness, llamas. But you'd be much less of an clueless asshole if you didn't let it blind you to the motives and justifications of people you disagree with. All you American politicals have way too much of a "good guys vs bad guys" thing going on, and your cultural hegemony is exporting that simplistic belligerent bullshit to the rest of the world.

Do yourself a favour ; pick out a couple of political agendas that you personally despise, and spend some time trying to put together some arguments in favour of them. You'll find that you're a better person for it.

Llamas
02-19-2012, 03:22 PM
Because it gets them into heaven, perhaps?

I seriously have nothing against your extreme left-wingedness, llamas. But you'd be much less of an clueless asshole if you didn't let it blind you to the motives and justifications of people you disagree with. All you American politicals have way too much of a "good guys vs bad guys" thing going on, and your cultural hegemony is exporting that simplistic belligerent bullshit to the rest of the world.

Do yourself a favour ; pick out a couple of political agendas that you personally despise, and spend some time trying to put together some arguments in favour of them. You'll find that you're a better person for it.

I grew up a right-wing Christian, so I don't think I have to try to put together arguments in favor, considering that's what I was raised to believe.

Baldwin
02-19-2012, 03:36 PM
Fair enough, that exercise would be pointless, then.

But if you were raised right-wing and Christian, why can't you see the good intentions behind homosexual deprogramming? Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the practice ; I think it's wrongheaded and stupid, but the good intentions behind it are extremely obvious.

Llamas
02-19-2012, 03:51 PM
Fair enough, that exercise would be pointless, then.

But if you were raised right-wing and Christian, why can't you see the good intentions behind homosexual deprogramming? Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the practice ; I think it's wrongheaded and stupid, but the good intentions behind it are extremely obvious.

Well, when I started to become self-aware and look at my religious beliefs from the outside (and listen to atheist friends around me), I learned that my attitude (which wasn't nearly as strong or in-your-face as what the pamphlet is making fun of) was condescending. I repeated the famous phrase evangelicals love, "If a loved one was walking toward a cliff blindfolded, wouldn't you stop them?" I of course thought it was a perfect analogy, not understanding that most Americans know about Christianity and the vast majority don't need evangelicals to "save" them, as they're fully capable of deciding for themselves. As I got a bit older, I began to feel insulted when evangelicals would try to "save" me. This happened very often, working in a crappy restaurant where surely a bunch of godless heathens work. I was repeatedly given pamphlets that explained the meaning of Jesus dying on the cross, how to get to heaven, etc... I was asked by customers if I was going to heaven, and basically harassed at work. Are these all good intentions? I'm sure these people have been brainwashed to believe they're doing good, yes. I believed the same because my mom and my church told me so, as well. But it's just so incredibly selfish and condescending.

I tend to avoid this stuff nowadays. I have religious friends, some of whom believe that homosexuality is a sin, but they maintain it as a personal, private belief, and I'm fine with that. I won't have a relationship with someone like that, but it's not like I only hang out with people who think the same way I do.

And I don't think I'm a clueless asshole. I sure was when I was 19, though.

Edit: A lot of my friends are conservatives, some are even Republicans... some have slightly sexist attitudes, and even a few have come out with a racist comment here and there (usually against gypsies). I'm sure a lot more than I know of are not really cool with homosexuality. In the thread "the oh moment", I was overwhelmed with a particular situation. I don't write people off for having different views than I do. I won't have a relationship with someone who disagrees strongly with me on something I'm passionate about, but otherwise, as long as you're not an asshole about it, I don't really care.

Baldwin
02-19-2012, 04:28 PM
Trust me, you're a clueless asshole. Don't take it as an insult, because I'm one too. We all are. That "I was when I was 19" feeling never stops happening, and the quicker you figure that one out the better off you'll be. Two years from now, the both of us will be looking back at our two-years-ago selves and thinking "Damn! What a clueless asshole I used to be. Good thing I've got everything figured out now." Same thing will be happening when we're sixty. It just doesn't ever stop. All of us, every single one of us, have everything figured out now. And we're all embarrassed about the clueless assholes we were two years ago.

But anyways, I wasn't saying you should accept conservatives, republicans, homophobes or racists as friends. If your criteria for friendship included political beliefs, there'd be nothing wrong with that at all. Personally, I'd never accept a dwarf as a friend, and I don't consider that to be the slightest bit bad, because I feel there's nothing wrong with bigotry in the selection of one's friends. If somebody refused to have me as a friend because I was white, male, or any other thing else, I wouldn't fault them for it.

What I'm talking about is that so-very-American way of willfully refusing to understand or empathise with people they consider "the enemy". And you're a good example, too. You used to be a right-wing Christian who witnessed to people, with the very best of intentions. That's fine. You then developed your own beliefs and renounced the ones you were raised with. That's fine too. But your resentment of what you used to believe is clouding your judgement. It's blinding you to the good intentions of those people. I can understand that, of course. But it's not a good thing to be loaded down with. I'm not saying you should like them, or respect them, or learn to agree with them. I'm just saying you should understand where they're coming from, because I know how easy it is to just close off your mind and decide "They do it just to be selfish and condescending". But they don't, and deep down you know they don't, and you should make an effort to remember they don't.

And my last word is ; "Brainwashing" is what the other side does. Our side educates.

KickHimWhenHe'sDown
02-19-2012, 05:12 PM
About it having good intentions. It's a joke; satire. And if it was real, how is trying to scare people out of who they are and convincing them to live a lie "good intentions"?

It was a joke? I should have read beyond the first two pages I guess. Oops.

I would say that similar (non-parody) books/booklets would have good intentions. It would assist the parent in preventing their child from becoming homosexual (which I don't get how that'd happen in a Christian home anyways) which would put the parent at ease because they'd know that their child isn't making a sinful lifestyle for themselves. It would be very good for the child because then the kid wouldn't need to go to hell. I'm sure fighting for the salvation of a child isn't as bad of a thing as you make it seem.

Sometimes being "who you are" isn't a good thing. Think of your most annoying friend. Should they change a characteristic to become a better person or should they just keep on being a dick because it's "who they are"?

It's like a murderer. Or having a child that wishes to become a murderer. I'm sure as a parent, you'd want to get that idea out of their head. Do you get my point? Try thinking about it from the perspective of a deeply concerned parent.

Nowhere in this message did I intend to offend you personally. Please forgive me if I did.

KickHimWhenHe'sDown
02-19-2012, 05:14 PM
As a side note, I agree with basically everything Baldwin has said. Not everything, but the overall theme

Llamas
02-19-2012, 05:40 PM
Trust me, you're a clueless asshole. Don't take it as an insult, because I'm one too. We all are. That "I was when I was 19" feeling never stops happening, and the quicker you figure that one out the better off you'll be. Two years from now, the both of us will be looking back at our two-years-ago selves and thinking "Damn! What a clueless asshole I used to be. Good thing I've got everything figured out now." Same thing will be happening when we're sixty. It just doesn't ever stop. All of us, every single one of us, have everything figured out now. And we're all embarrassed about the clueless assholes we were two years ago.
Right, totally agree with you there. Didn't take it that way before, but it's 100% true, and anyone who doesn't hate the stupid, ignorant person they were a year or two ago is probably stagnant and stubborn. You're right that I'll consider my current self ignorant in a few years.


But anyways, I wasn't saying you should accept conservatives, republicans, homophobes or racists as friends. If your criteria for friendship included political beliefs, there'd be nothing wrong with that at all. Personally, I'd never accept a dwarf as a friend, and I don't consider that to be the slightest bit bad, because I feel there's nothing wrong with bigotry in the selection of one's friends. If somebody refused to have me as a friend because I was white, male, or any other thing else, I wouldn't fault them for it.
Why wouldn't you accept a dwarf as a friend? This paragraph confused me a bit. Why do you think it's okay to be bigoted in friend choice, and how is bigotry connected with not wanting to associate with people who disagree politically or socially? I'm not disagreeing with you, just curious.


What I'm talking about is that so-very-American way of willfully refusing to understand or empathise with people they consider "the enemy". And you're a good example, too. You used to be a right-wing Christian who witnessed to people, with the very best of intentions. That's fine. You then developed your own beliefs and renounced the ones you were raised with. That's fine too. But your resentment of what you used to believe is clouding your judgement. It's blinding you to the good intentions of those people. I can understand that, of course. But it's not a good thing to be loaded down with. I'm not saying you should like them, or respect them, or learn to agree with them. I'm just saying you should understand where they're coming from, because I know how easy it is to just close off your mind and decide "They do it just to be selfish and condescending". But they don't, and deep down you know they don't, and you should make an effort to remember they don't.

And I concede this point, in that, yes, I do of course see how there are good intentions on the part of such people, but it's not really saying a damn thing. Most people do horrible things with good intentions. The nazis slaughtered Jews because it was "empathetic". That gunman in Norway last year thought he was doing a good thing, killing a bunch of teenagers. I'm not at all saying that "praying the gay away" is anything like killing people; just saying that "good intentions" don't really mean a damn thing. I know *they* don't think they're being douchebags, but they are. Most douchebags don't realize how they're being. So okay, I shouldn't have questioned Kickhimwhenhesdown's statement that they had good intentions; if it were a real pamphlet, I'm sure it would have such.


And my last word is ; "Brainwashing" is what the other side does. Our side educates.
lol, I agree with you, but I'm sensitive to this shit from all angles. When I see people being brainwashed toward my beliefs, I get annoyed, as well. A pamphlet like the one I posted isn't brainwashing in itself, but things like the "Don't Say Gay" bill in Tennessee is, and a pamphlet like that can easily be used for it. I can't think of any pro-gay brainwashing off the top of my head, but I know I've seen it, and it's bugged me, as well. I think it's a person's right to not be cool with homosexuality, and I don't think it should be forced down anyone's throats.


Sometimes being "who you are" isn't a good thing. Think of your most annoying friend. Should they change a characteristic to become a better person or should they just keep on being a dick because it's "who they are"?

It's like a murderer. Or having a child that wishes to become a murderer. I'm sure as a parent, you'd want to get that idea out of their head. Do you get my point? Try thinking about it from the perspective of a deeply concerned parent.

Hmm, so you believe that being gay is a conscious decision and choice, similar to an annoying habit or choosing to murder someone? If that's the case, I'll halt this conversation here. If not, let me know, and we'll discuss this more.

Static_Martyr
02-19-2012, 06:23 PM
What bothers me when I read stuff like this, is seeing how these crazy ideas are gaining footing in the mainstream on the basis of being sensitive to other people's mindsets," and the people who challenge or ridicule stupid ideas like "Praying The Gay Away" are considered "arrogant" or "bigoted" -- not on the basis of whether or not it's actually true that you can pray the gay away, but rather based on how quickly they dismiss that possibility.

I don't think we're under any obligation to respect someone's ideology just because they might have "good intentions" or whatever to try and back it up; that alone speaks nothing to the veracity of the argument itself. People are free to call me a "bigot" in return if they think I'm just ignoring their reasons in not giving them this warrantless "respect," but the fact remains that I feel I have good reasons to believe what I believe about a given issue (just like they do), and that isn't overridden by the fact that they may also have reasons to believe what they do. If it was, then they would be obligated to shut up and quit talking about it to me as well, but oddly, that never seems to be the case --- they're allowed to speak their piece, and yet when you challenge or ridicule their beliefs, you're called "arrogant" or a "bigot." In cases like that, we get nowhere by just blindly "respecting" each other's beliefs in the sense that we don't challenge them or oppose them; I dare say there should be some dissent and argument between people who have drastically opposing views. The public platform is supposed to be a marketplace of ideas; the entire point of having a freedom-of-speech platform is to allow everyone to speak their piece and support their views however they see fit, and to allow other people to judge those views in response and make their own cases for or against them. That's how ideas become mainstream (or die off and become fringe nonsense). If good ideas aren't defended properly then they die off and disappear, and yet that's exactly what happens when we withhold our concerns about other people's beliefs on the basis that we're being "disrespectful" if we call them out, or because we worry about how we'll see ourselves in twenty or fifty years. I say we worry about the reasons behind our actions now, and worry about whether what we say or believe is actually true, and argue on those merits.

That's what scares me so much about the political state of America today; there are too many preconditions we place on public discourse --- you're not supposed to respond to or challenge certain things because it's "rude" or "disrespectful" or what-have-you....but then it's not "rude" or "disrespectful" for the other party to state those ideas in the first place? And then we have two sides that refuse to play by the same rules --- liberals and the left tend to want to be "the nice guys," so they overly pander and cave and apologize anytime they offend anyone, and they never seem to stand by their beliefs for very long until they've been watered down into such a soft, overly-extremist moderation (weird phrase, I know) that they're no longer of any real substance. NOFX had it right with that song title, "everything in moderation (especially moderation)." Something isn't better just because it's nicer, more polite or more moderate --- that's just the myth of the "golden mean."

But on the other hand, the extreme right tends to do the exact opposite --- they shout and grind and annoy and attack and refuse to back down or consider the validity of any points they make; it's all about aggression and winning, and there's never any compromise. As a result, the left ends up "compromising" all of their ideals away and giving in to a right that is completely uncompromising, and so we have the appearance of a far-right country that is actually a lot more diverse than our representatives would have you believe.

I mean, I'm sure I have some beliefs that are wrong, or at least flawed or misguided. The catch is, to have confidence in what I believe right now isn't a bad thing, as long as I'm willing to engage other people and defend what I believe, and concede only when I believe I've been proven wrong (or at least likely to not be right). If everyone always caves and changes their minds anytime they're attacked or opposed in an argument, then nobody learns anything --- it's just a culture of appeasement where nobody wants to fight, so the loudest brat wins.

[/rant]

Baldwin
02-19-2012, 06:33 PM
re ; dwarves and bigotry

I don't feel comfortable around dwarfs. They creep me out, with their stodgy little torsos and shortened limbs and malformed heads, and I can't help but feel they all plot to murder me in my sleep. I'm not saying they're bad people, or wishing them anything but the best of luck in their lives, I just wouldn't ever have one as a friend because one is supposed to enjoy the company of one's friends. Which is why I see nothing wrong with excluding people from potential friendship based on bigotry and prejudice, whether it's about gender, race, colour, beliefs or anything else. The KKK aren't bad people for not wanting black friends, after all ; they're bad people for wanting to string blacks up.


re; good intentions

To get big-city intellectual up on you, "L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs". Another good ol' evangelical quote that fits is "Hate the sin, love the sinner". These people aren't being douchebags, they're doing douchebaggy things, and there's a big difference. I'm not saying we should up and blanket-forgive everybody for everything, so long as their intentions were good ; I'm just saying that if we can learn to stop hating them for it, we'll all be better and happier people. I know I am.



re; brainwashing

I think you quite missed my point. Brainwashing is forceful indoctrination using a controlled environment, violence, imprisonment or the withholding of primary needs ; it's what happens to child soldiers and compound cultists and sex slaves. Those instances of anti-gay "brainwashing" are just activism, pure and simple ; just like pro-gay activism is maligned as "brainwashing" by some folks on the anti-gay side. If it's being forced down your throat, it's annoying and inappropriate activism, but it's still not brainwashing. It's nice, of course, to assume that you came by your opinions based on free thought and education, while the other side came to theirs by having them ruthlessly forced into their scarred and fragile minds, but the truth of it is that there are very few Mormons going door-to-door and holding guns to people's heads. By all means, feel free to accuse the other side of being more annoying and inappropriate than yours, but keep in mind that from their perspective, your side is more annoying and inappropriate than theirs ; because we're always more tolerant of the questionable methods of those preaching our own message.

mario_spaghettio
02-19-2012, 07:44 PM
http://lgbtlaughs.tumblr.com/post/17885896175/fattiesinlove-as-sequential-art-project-in

Click the image and read away! Please, mario, inform us all of how accurate this is. I love being enlightened by these things! :D

In related news, this is hilarious and I love it.That was hilarious. It's hard to gauge it's accuracy since it was satirical, but tidbits of it are certainly grounded in truth. Even if this were a serious piece, I would obviously not endorse it since it's presented from a religious perspective.

KickHimWhenHe'sDown
02-20-2012, 02:37 PM
Hmm, so you believe that being gay is a conscious decision and choice, similar to an annoying habit or choosing to murder someone? If that's the case, I'll halt this conversation here. If not, let me know, and we'll discuss this more.

The conversation is halted.

Little_Miss_1565
02-20-2012, 03:30 PM
It's like a murderer. Or having a child that wishes to become a murderer. I'm sure as a parent, you'd want to get that idea out of their head. Do you get my point? Try thinking about it from the perspective of a deeply concerned parent.

Except for the extremely obvious point that it hurts others and is thus illegal to murder anyone, and it hurts absolutely no one (except for your personal pride, grounded in fallacious things like the sexual orientation of your children) to be gay.

KickHimWhenHe'sDown
02-20-2012, 04:03 PM
Except for the extremely obvious point that it hurts others and is thus illegal to murder anyone, and it hurts absolutely no one (except for your personal pride, grounded in fallacious things like the sexual orientation of your children) to be gay.

Decent point. Homosexuality really doesn't hurt anybody besides the homosexual and their loved ones that it concerns.

I was just trying to put it in a Christian perspective, that they are justified in having a concern because they desire the salvation of everyone. It wouldn't only hurt pride, it could break some people's hearts (I know that a heart cannot be literally broken, but I think you understand my reference).

If you think about it, murderers can hurt less people than homosexuals. Sometimes, they could hurt millions, like Hitler. I'm not trying to draw a comparison between a murderer and a homosexual, because they are very different things; it was just easier for the sake of an example.

You shouldn't claim that a parent who would be embarrassed if their child was gay, has pride grounded in fallacious things. It could be very logical, because it reflects on their parenting.

Now I sound like a jerk, so I guess I might as well get it out there on the BBS. I'm very right-wing. I'm against homosexuality. I'm aware that there are a few gay members in the community, so that's why I try to avoid the topic. I HATE offending people. I also don't want to be banned for "trolling". Is expressing an opinion contrary to the majority considered trolling, LittleMiss1565? Because I will drop the topic if I'm on the verge of a ban, even though I already dropped it before.

XYlophonetreeZ
02-20-2012, 04:21 PM
If you think about it, murderers can hurt less people than homosexuals.

Wait, wait, what? Hold on. You really didn't explain this at all.

KickHimWhenHe'sDown
02-20-2012, 04:42 PM
Wait, wait, what? Hold on. You really didn't explain this at all.

Now that I look back on it, I should have explained that more. I said "can".

Here's a fictional example:
A murderer kills Bill. Bill was hated by everyone throughout his entire life and then left to live in the mountains. Everybody forgot about his existence and then 30 years later he was shot and killed by a mad man. No one was hurt or affected by this crime.

Bob grew up in a little Christian town with well respected parents. Bob was neglected and didn't receive much spiritual teaching. Bob became gay and moved far away. Everyone loves Bob but are now incredible grieved because they suspect Bob will not receive eternal salvation and they can't stop mourning the loss. Since Bob lives far away, they cannot contact him to try to change his path.

Bob hurt his whole town, the murderer who killed Bill only hurt Bill.

That is an extremely exaggerated example, but I'm sure you could come up with something more realistic based off of that.

Llamas
02-20-2012, 05:03 PM
I'm sorry, kickhimwhenhesdown, but being gay hurts nobody. I don't see how you're able to say that being gay can hurt more people than being a murderer. That's the strangest comparison I've ever heard.

If you're basing it solely on an intolerance to gayness, and saying it can hurt parents because it's not how the parents raised their kids, okay, that's one way any child can hurt any parent - by not growing up exactly how their parents wanted them to, by choice or by nature. By being born a girl when your parents wanted a boy. By being short and ugly when your parents wanted a tall, beautiful kid. By becoming a teacher when your parents wanted you to become a lawyer. By having a religion (or lack of religion) which differs from your parents'. My mom will likely never forgive me for not being straight; her homophobia hurts me at least as much as my gayness hurts her.

And finally, if you think being gay is a choice, why is it found so often in nature? Do you think animals choose to be gay, as well?

Little_Miss_1565
02-20-2012, 05:07 PM
I was raised Christian, KickHim. Jesus' sole message was to love all, without question. There's nothing even remotely loving about your hypothesis that murderers hurt fewer people than gays. Someone being gay actually doesn't hurt anyone. Constructs like the notion that who someone loves has any negative affects exist only in the mind.

It's not considered trolling to express an unpopular opinion. It's trolling if you start topics to the tune of "All faggots will burn" and shit like that.

Llamas
02-20-2012, 05:10 PM
Now that I look back on it, I should have explained that more. I said "can".

Here's a fictional example:
A murderer kills Bill. Bill was hated by everyone throughout his entire life and then left to live in the mountains. Everybody forgot about his existence and then 30 years later he was shot and killed by a mad man. No one was hurt or affected by this crime.

Bob grew up in a little Christian town with well respected parents. Bob was neglected and didn't receive much spiritual teaching. Bob became gay and moved far away. Everyone loves Bob but are now incredible grieved because they suspect Bob will not receive eternal salvation and they can't stop mourning the loss. Since Bob lives far away, they cannot contact him to try to change his path.

Bob hurt his whole town, the murderer who killed Bill only hurt Bill.

That is an extremely exaggerated example, but I'm sure you could come up with something more realistic based off of that.

Whoa. This example is horrible. First of all, in your first example, Bill was hurt. Second of all, your example with Bob... first of all, let's say that being gay is a choice (it's not - when did you choose to be straight?) Now let's say a white mom in a super Christian community which is racist and against interracial love, has a baby with a black man. That baby, Bob, grows up in the community, both he and his parents are hated by everyone. So is his mom guilty of a crime? Did she do something wrong because she hurt a bunch of people by falling in love with a black man? Or maybe, just maybe... the racist community hurt a family by being a bunch of racists.

Finally, speaking of... some humor. :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_wWJ-_4uSY

mrconeman
02-20-2012, 06:58 PM
If you think about it, murderers can hurt less people than homosexuals. Sometimes, they could hurt millions, like Hitler.

Did you seriously just compare an entire section of the human race to a fascist dictator that initiated the wanton slaughter of millions of people, just because they like to put their genitalia in different places than you? Because that's what it boils down to.

You total maniac.
You are completely brainwashed by the backwards society from which you come, expand your horizons, or nobody but the backward cult to which you belong will ever take you seriously.

@Llamas, I know you're being diplomatic, but I honestly wouldn't advise conversing on a point by point basis with a completely mentally deficient victim of brain trauma.

edit: fucking hell, I can't believe that comment.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhnN54tHjkI&feature=related

KickHimWhenHe'sDown
02-20-2012, 08:19 PM
I am TERRIBLE at wording things. I need to clear up some misconceptions.



If you're basing it solely on an intolerance to gayness, and saying it can hurt parents because it's not how the parents raised their kids, okay, that's one way any child can hurt any parent - by not growing up exactly how their parents wanted them to, by choice or by nature. By being born a girl when your parents wanted a boy. By being short and ugly when your parents wanted a tall, beautiful kid. By becoming a teacher when your parents wanted you to become a lawyer. By having a religion (or lack of religion) which differs from your parents'. My mom will likely never forgive me for not being straight; her homophobia hurts me at least as much as my gayness hurts her.


I'm sure if a parent wanted a tall pretty kid, but got a short ugly one, that they'd be disappointed. But I'm talking about something the parents would recognize as morally wrong. It would be heart breaking for a parent to imagine their child as damned to Hell. That was my point about it hurting the parents and the others who love the gay person. This is was why I wanted to avoid this topic, because I don't want to have to accuse you of living a sinful lifestyle.
(By the way I don't think I'm any better. I am totally undeserving of heaven)


I was raised Christian, KickHim. Jesus' sole message was to love all, without question. There's nothing even remotely loving about your hypothesis that murderers hurt fewer people than gays. Someone being gay actually doesn't hurt anyone. Constructs like the notion that who someone loves has any negative affects exist only in the mind.

Sorry about my poorly worded murderer comparison. I meant that there are situations where a gay could hurt more people than a murderer could, and there are many situations where a murderer would hurt more people than a gay would. I didn't say that "All homos will always end up hurting more people that a killer ever could". That is definitely not what I meant.


Did you seriously just compare an entire section of the human race to a fascist dictator that initiated the wanton slaughter of millions of people, just because they like to put their genitalia in different places than you? Because that's what it boils down to.

You total maniac.
You are completely brainwashed by the backwards society from which you come, expand your horizons, or nobody but the backward cult to which you belong will ever take you seriously.

This is what I'm apologizing for. I was using Hitler as an example of a murderer to prove that I still believe that murderers often hurt many more people than a homosexual would. You misunderstood what I said, and I don't blame you, because everyone else did too.

I'm sorry but I disagree with you on the maniac thing.
1.a raving or violently insane person; lunatic.
By definition, I am nothing similar to a maniac.

I come from Canada bro. Canada is way more left wing than the US. I am just about the only one who isn't brainwashed because I do a little bit of critical thinking instead of believing every single thing the media says. I can guarantee you that I've never been brainwashed.

Also, I belong to no cult. I've always thought they seemed rather creepy and dangerous, so I avoid them altogether.

KickHimWhenHe'sDown
02-20-2012, 08:38 PM
Whoa. This example is horrible. First of all, in your first example, Bill was hurt. Second of all, your example with Bob... first of all, let's say that being gay is a choice (it's not - when did you choose to be straight?) Now let's say a white mom in a super Christian community which is racist and against interracial love, has a baby with a black man. That baby, Bob, grows up in the community, both he and his parents are hated by everyone. So is his mom guilty of a crime? Did she do something wrong because she hurt a bunch of people by falling in love with a black man? Or maybe, just maybe... the racist community hurt a family by being a bunch of racists.




I mentioned that Bill was hurt
You argue that it's not a choice? Very well. We'll just leave that alone for now I guess before I sound like more of a douche bag than I already do.
A racist Christian community? Doesn't sound very Christian..... bad example already.
You're comparing something that is unchangeable, like race, to homosexuality. This is unrelated, but racism is such crap. All races are practically the same except for some very very tiny differences. Sorry but it just really annoys me.
The mother did no crime.
If she hurt the community, maybe they should read the Bible if they claim to be so Christian, then they'll realize what crap racism is.
I agree that that racist town probably did hurt the family

I'm sorry but this case is very different. Bob turned gay which upset so many people because they wanted the best for him, which in their eyes, was a life following Christ. I never even entered this discussion forcing you to believe what I say. I just wanted to bring up the point that some people do have a right to be concerned if someone turns gay, because they care about them. That's all I wanted to say.


Something else I might add:
Homophobia is usually defined as the fear or hatred of homosexuals in most dictionaries that I've seen. In that case, I am not homophobic.
I hate no man (or woman). I never have, and probably never will. No one has ever given me a reason to hate them, and I hope that no one ever does. I've been very poorly treated by people, but I was raised in a way where I almost see it as my own fault, and that I shouldn't be mad at them. That sounds a little screwed up but that's mainly because I didn't take the time to word it better.
Also, I have no fear of homosexuals. I just don't. They don't seem very scary. I really don't get that one. I'm sure if there was a homosexual who was trying to rip apart my cat or something, I'd fear him, but that's just one specific person that I'd fear for a reason completely unrelated to his sexual orientation.



I am not homophobic.



And please, do not take my arguments too personally. I'm sure you will, but try not to. I'm already really upset that I've probably slightly angered you, and I like you. You're pretty cool. I don't like angering people that overall don't ever really bother me.

KickHimWhenHe'sDown
02-20-2012, 08:41 PM
@Llamas, I know you're being diplomatic, but I honestly wouldn't advise conversing on a point by point basis with a completely mentally deficient victim of brain trauma.


I'm sorry, what did I do to you?

I like how llamas isn't opposed to arguing. She actually argues. You just spit out insults that you can't defend. I know a guy like that.

Llamas
02-20-2012, 08:46 PM
I don't have the energy nor interest to get into everything that's wrong with your post or how your mind works, but:

Exodus 21:20-21 If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.

1 Peter 2:18 Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.

Leviticus 25:44-45

Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.

-------

There's a bunch of other pro-slavery, racism and sexism in the bible. Saying that a racist Christian community isn't Christian is a load of BS and you're judging other Christians by your own standards. Who are you to tell people whether or not they are Christian?

Llamas
02-20-2012, 08:49 PM
Also, your subtle jabs at gays all the while claiming you don't want to offend anyone is pretty pathetic. At least own your opinions.

I'm sorry, I don't really care at this point if you think I'm pretty cool or you like me. Your comparison of gays and murderers is beyond disgusting and I can't really take you seriously anymore.

Edit: and yes, the term "homophobia" is a strange one, and when it was coined, they misused the word "phobia". However, the word does not just mean "fear of". If we took it literally, it'd be "fear of sameness". However, homophobia is defined as negative views and attitudes toward homosexuals, which you have.

mrconeman
02-21-2012, 03:10 AM
Sorry about my poorly worded murderer comparison. I meant that there are situations where a gay could hurt more people than a murderer could, and there are many situations where a murderer would hurt more people than a gay would. I didn't say that "All homos will always end up hurting more people that a killer ever could". That is definitely not what I meant.



You can apologise for your lack of grammatical skill all you wish, but that's not what I'm attacking. I don't care how poorly you worded what you believe because you still believe it. It is absolute and utter bullshit to base *any* conclusion about a person due to what they like to do with their genitalia, other than the fact that that's what they like to do with their genitalia. You can't ever justify the fact that you have compared homosexuals to Adolf Hitler, on the basis that they can "hurt millions of people" it's just not true, and the only reason you think it is, is because you have been completely brainwashed by the Religious cult of your choice.



This is what I'm apologizing for. I was using Hitler as an example of a murderer to prove that I still believe that murderers often hurt many more people than a homosexual would. You misunderstood what I said, and I don't blame you, because everyone else did too.

I really don't think I did though. I think I understood you perfectly well, and you are now back-pedaling your argument, because you don't like annoying people. I genuinely believe you might other wise be a nice guy, and like to avoid confrontation, that much is obvious, however your doing it at the cost of lying about what you believe now. You are basing this on your previous poor wording, but again, it doesn't matter how you put it down on a webpage, it's still what you believe, and what you believe is wrong, and the result of mental abuse.



I'm sorry but I disagree with you on the maniac thing.
1.a raving or violently insane person; lunatic.
By definition, I am nothing similar to a maniac.
hy·per·bo·le
noun Rhetoric .
1.
obvious and intentional exaggeration.
Get used to it, I use it a lot, the point is still made.


I come from Canada bro. Canada is way more left wing than the US. I am just about the only one who isn't brainwashed because I do a little bit of critical thinking instead of believing every single thing the media says. I can guarantee you that I've never been brainwashed.

Which is probably about the first thing a person says when they've been brainwashed. Nobody mentioned the media as the result of your brainwashing. I have no idea what Canadian media is a like, and not a very fair view of American media, I have never been to either country, I wouldn't know about either of their media services. You have been brainwashed by your Religion, something I know quite a lot about, and understand entirely as not wholly your fault, and you do apparently believe everything that's in the Bible, which is where your archaic and maniacal beliefs have come from, no?



Also, I belong to no cult. I've always thought they seemed rather creepy and dangerous, so I avoid them altogether.
A cult being large, and socially acceptable, does not make it not a cult.

Harleyquiiinn
02-21-2012, 03:29 AM
I'm sorry people but I think you are being kind of rude to KickHim...

Obviously, I don't share his opinions but come on, the guy SAID he was against homosexuality and was very right-wing. He also mentionned that it was only his opinion.

And no, he didn't compare homosexuality to murder. He just said that if a murderer that nobody cares about kills a guy that no one cares about, well, the only guy who cares is the guy who is murdered. Contrary to that, a person that everyone around cares about could hurt people by revealing his/her homosexuality because the said "everyone around" believe that he will have a terrible life and are sad for him.

Again, I don't agree with this (because your basics are wrong Kickhim as other people said before. Being sad for someone because of your own opinion isn't the same as being truly hurt, with a knife, and dying) , but please, he didn't "compare" murder with homosexuality. This is a mind shortcut.

Static_Martyr
02-21-2012, 04:40 AM
And no, he didn't compare homosexuality to murder. He just said that if a murderer that nobody cares about kills a guy that no one cares about, well, the only guy who cares is the guy who is murdered. Contrary to that, a person that everyone around cares about could hurt people by revealing his/her homosexuality because the said "everyone around" believe that he will have a terrible life and are sad for him.

If I may contribute my two cents here....does it not matter if those people are factually wrong about homosexuality leading to a "horrible life" or "eternal damnation?" I've noticed that this argument seems to have proceeded thus far on the basis that it doesn't matter what's actually true about gays, just what people think or feel about it.

I like (and frequently cite) the racism example someone else used earlier: if a racist community *honestly believes* that a white girl marrying a black man could lead to "a horrible life" or (for example, if they're a mormon or something) "eternal damnation," does that mean that if a white girl from that group decides to date a black guy, that she's somehow responsible for "hurting" her family or community, and that this constitutes a negative aspect of "blackness?" I just don't think so. Because that's a factually incorrect belief, and those people are wrong. To say that the white girl and her black boyfriend "hurt" anyone because of her actions is a gross misrepresentation of the truth --- the stupid racists who live in that group are the ones who are letting their racism hurt the couple. Same goes for gays; the simple fact of someone being openly gay has never, ever, hurt anyone. It's other people's reactions to it that cause people pain, and that is no fault of the gay person in question.

EDIT: To put it even more simply....the "pain" caused to the community by the person's gayness could not exist without someone else holding some prior specific belief about gays. Therefore, being gay itself is not the cause of harm, the beliefs about being gay are the cause of harm.

Llamas
02-21-2012, 05:49 AM
Obviously, I don't share his opinions but come on, the guy SAID he was against homosexuality and was very right-wing. He also mentionned that it was only his opinion.
Come on, I don't have a problem simply with being right wing. Being against homosexuality in this case is bothersome due to his reasoning behind it. Though I've never heard an argument against homosexuality that made any sense. Ever. I've heard more arguments against feminism that made sense, which isn't very many.


And no, he didn't compare homosexuality to murder. He just said that if a murderer that nobody cares about kills a guy that no one cares about, well, the only guy who cares is the guy who is murdered. Contrary to that, a person that everyone around cares about could hurt people by revealing his/her homosexuality because the said "everyone around" believe that he will have a terrible life and are sad for him.

Harley, you're missing something here. How can one even begin to compare how a murderer hurts people, vs. how a gay might hurt people? The two are entirely incomparable, and it breaks my heart to see them compared. A murderer takes humans' lives, removes them from earth, and causes mourning over a dead loved one, usually more than one. A murderer doesn't respect human life or rights, and is okay with violently breaking the law for some violent, aggressive, crazy reason. A gay person falls in love with who they fall in love with, and a bunch of people are "hurt" because they can't accept it. I'm sorry, but your intolerance is the cause then for your being hurt. You're allowed to think homosexuality is wrong. But a gay person isn't guilty for your offense. Just like someone who eats pork isn't wrong or to blame that a Muslim community is offended. It's their own problem for choosing to be offended by that.


If I may contribute my two cents here....does it not matter if those people are factually wrong about homosexuality leading to a "horrible life" or "eternal damnation?" I've noticed that this argument seems to have proceeded thus far on the basis that it doesn't matter what's actually true about gays, just what people think or feel about it.
I agree with you entirely. I don't get how it doesn't matter if they're "wrong". Hey, maybe it DOES lead to eternal damnation. Who knows, maybe the Christians are right and all the gays are gonna suffer in the end. Wouldn't it be hella fucked up if God decided to not let in a believer and a follower who loved him with all their heart, thanked Jesus every day, etc... and was gay? God sends that person to hell. How can anyone even WANT to love a god like that? But that's a whole different discussion...


I like (and frequently cite) the racism example someone else used earlier: if a racist community *honestly believes* that a white girl marrying a black man could lead to "a horrible life" or (for example, if they're a mormon or something) "eternal damnation," does that mean that if a white girl from that group decides to date a black guy, that she's somehow responsible for "hurting" her family or community, and that this constitutes a negative aspect of "blackness?" I just don't think so. Because that's a factually incorrect belief, and those people are wrong. To say that the white girl and her black boyfriend "hurt" anyone because of her actions is a gross misrepresentation of the truth --- the stupid racists who live in that group are the ones who are letting their racism hurt the couple. Same goes for gays; the simple fact of someone being openly gay has never, ever, hurt anyone. It's other people's reactions to it that cause people pain, and that is no fault of the gay person in question.
I agree with this entire paragraph, it was worded perfectly and I have nothing to add.

This all reminds me of a friend of mine who was afraid to tell her mom she was gay for like 3 years... living a secret life, not being honest with her mom, etc... it was awful. But she was afraid her mom wouldn't accept her as a Christian and would disown her, as her mom was anti-homosexuality. Eventually, I convinced her to tell her mom. Her mom reacted badly for the first few months. Wasn't inviting her to come home, didn't want to hear about her girlfriend, lots of shunning and ignoring going on. After not too long, though, her mom realized that her daughter hadn't changed. She was still the same loving, sweet person she'd always been. She just had a girlfriend instead of a boyfriend.

Her mom lost the battle with breast cancer last year. Her relationship with her daughter when she passed couldn't have been stronger.

Harleyquiiinn
02-21-2012, 06:22 AM
Come on, I don't have a problem simply with being right wing. Being against homosexuality in this case is bothersome due to his reasoning behind it. Though I've never heard an argument against homosexuality that made any sense. Ever. I've heard more arguments against feminism that made sense, which isn't very many.


Yes but the thing is, I think KickHim has been quite moderate in what he said. The comparison was poor, indeed, but he apologized for it and tried to explain himself better.



Harley, you're missing something here. How can one even begin to compare how a murderer hurts people, vs. how a gay might hurt people?

Oh, I didn't miss it, that's exactly why I tell Kick him how the basics of the reasoning is wrong in the paragraph just under it and also that is why I don't agree with him.

But saying he compared a homosexual to a murderer is making him say a lot more than he actually did, IMO.

Again, my opinion about homosexuality is a lot closer to yours than his.


To put it even more simply....the "pain" caused to the community by the person's gayness could not exist without someone else holding some prior specific belief about gays. Therefore, being gay itself is not the cause of harm, the beliefs about being gay are the cause of harm.

I completely agree with you. And that's also in my ( ) sentence, following the one you quoted ;)

AllIn All It's Not So Bad
02-21-2012, 06:49 AM
[LIST]
You argue that it's not a choice?

Well idk, it has been observed in other animals. And I can actually prove it because my dog will try fuck everything whether it is male or female or living or nonliving. I'm pretty sure bisexuality is practiced in other species and this whole homophobia or characterization of homosexuality is just a
side effect of the human society.

Now, I'm not coming into defense for the gay people or bashing them either. I am staunchly neutral to homosexuality. I don't care if they get married or if they can't get married. I just don't care of have any interest in whatever agenda they have so before anyone calls me a faggot hater/love, I just wanted to make it clear that I am neutral.

Llamas
02-21-2012, 06:57 AM
Well idk, it has been observed in other animals. And I can actually prove it because my dog will try fuck everything whether it is male or female or living or nonliving.
Bonobos are pretty bisexual, and not just in this "will fuck anything", but in a way of actually bonding socially. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonobo#Sexual_social_behavior

There's also all these animals that engage in homosexual behavior: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals


I'm pretty sure bisexuality is practiced in other species and this whole homophobia or characterization of homosexuality is just a
side effect of the human society.
Precisely.

http://unicornbooty.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/AffirGAYtion-Homosexuality-Found-in-450-Species-Homophobia-in-One-300x225.png


Now, I'm not coming into defense for the gay people or bashing them either. I am staunchly neutral to homosexuality. I don't care if they get married or if they can't get married. I just don't care of have any interest in whatever agenda they have so before anyone calls me a faggot hater/love, I just wanted to make it clear that I am neutral.

And that's really all anyone asks. A lot of anti-gay folks think that the "LGBT agenda" wants to convince everyone to march in gay parades and be gay themselves. Even the ones who think the LGBT community wants everyone to be pro-gay have their heads up their asses. But the truth is, we're all the same, and I'd be happier if it was a non-issue and everyone was as neutral about homosexuality as we all are about heterosexuality.

KickHimWhenHe'sDown
02-21-2012, 12:02 PM
There is too much to read through and reply to, but I did read through llama's and coneman's immediate responses to mine.

Coneman, I actually did not lie about the Hitler thing. It would be idiotic to compare an extreme Fascist to a homosexual. I can promise you that I was using him as an example of a murderer that has hurt many people. I just didn't do a good job of organizing my paragraph. I need you to trust me on that, but if you can't, I guess I can't change that.

And if you're curious about Canadian media, it's basically super left wing and aggressive in bullying people into giving up their values. At least that's what I find, even in conservative Alberta. That's why I avoid big cities, because I do get some peace in my town.

About the cult thing, I can promise you I belong to none. Usually someone in a cult would face pressures if they attempted to leave. That would not happen with me. Usually in a cult, there is some form of spiritual leader, or other leader, that is not the case for me. Usually in a cult, they try to get your money, that is not the case with me. Usually in a Christian-based cult, they have their own separate teachings that would not fit into Bible. If you claim that any belief that has a community of people who believe it is a cult, you could say that almost everyone is part of a cult. I've changed my mind about certain issues several times on my own, and no one is forcing me to believe anything.

Llamas, none of what I said were arguments against homosexuality. I was explaining how it is possible to hurt people by being homosexual. That's all I was doing. I'm sure there are good arguments against it, but my reason for being against it is simply because it is sinful. I don't care if you disagree, you probably do, and I'm not trying to change your mind or lifestyle. You live far away and I barely know you so I don't think I'd be capable of that. And ultimately, it is your decision.

Also, I actually wasn't trying to offend you or anyone. That's why I wanted to avoid this debate altogether because I knew that it would become an argument involving some emotional responses, and that you would take it personally. I knew that was going to happen, and by claiming that I didn't want to offend you, I guess that was my way of apologizing.



This thread seems to beyond the point of being productive. I wasn't even trying to change anybody's mind in the first place. I just wanted to defend the fact that someone could be emotionally hurt by a homosexual. That's all.

Thank you all for actually reading what I had to say and replying without being too rude. This community is a lot more mature than other internet discussions. I think I'll avoid internet discussions on controversial issues altogether. I like talking to people in person.

I think I'm done in this thread mainly because I have a busy schedule today, and by the time I come back tomorrow I'll be overwhelmed with new messages in this thread. We're all just going to have to disagree for now. Also, if it hasn't happened already, I don't want any of you to hold a permanent grudge against me forever on the BBS. I'm afraid that if I keep talking, that might happen.

Isolated Fury
02-21-2012, 01:41 PM
I can confidently say that I respect the way that KickHim handled himself through this discussion. A lot of right-wingers would have gone ballistic and start ranting and raving and calling everyone heathens. It was very grown up of him.

Little_Miss_1565
02-21-2012, 01:56 PM
I can confidently say that I respect the way that KickHim handled himself through this discussion. A lot of right-wingers would have gone ballistic and start ranting and raving and calling everyone heathens. It was very grown up of him.

Enthusiastically seconded.

Outerspaceman21
02-21-2012, 03:44 PM
Just read it. I found it pretty hilarious, all the stereotypes they list like loving Lady Gaga, watching Glee and participating in musical theater.

IamSam
02-21-2012, 03:58 PM
In response to the 'pain felt' issue.

I don't agree that the pain felt by the families of killers and anti-gay families are the same. Yes, it is pain, but there is a difference that is universal to this.

Killers, it is generally agreed upon, are morally reprehensible. It doesn't matter what you brand yourself as, going even past Hammurabi murder was not viewed as a nicety in society.

Homosexual relations is not and has not been universally hated in society. It played significant roles in Greek and Roman culture, exists in other species, and is apparently wired into the brain. It is accepted by large sections of society, and, gay sex is a method for men to blow off sexual steam in a totalitarian religious state, Afghanistan. (Don't come out gay though, you will be killed/murdered for that. But having sex with a man is totally acceptable if you don't come out about it.)

Any pain felt by a family who opposes gay marriage is, in my opinion, manufactured pain. It is built off of prejudicial feelings to one group of people, no matter the relation. It is real pain, but is it a logical pain? Does a family that supports their child feel the same pain?

It is different with a killer. The pain is not manufactured. It is a constant. The feelings of pain will be with very nearly any member of society going through the same situation.

It might be that I don't share or have any empathy with a family that causes a son/daughter to be outcast because of who they are. I just don't think their pain is the same.

Llamas
02-21-2012, 04:46 PM
I can confidently say that I respect the way that KickHim handled himself through this discussion. A lot of right-wingers would have gone ballistic and start ranting and raving and calling everyone heathens. It was very grown up of him.

I do like how he kept calm and didn't fly off the handle. There was no name calling or mudslinging. However, he threw out rather extreme and offensive analogies, and then tried to kinda backpedal. However (again), he did apologize. I think he's a bit misguided, and his comparison was awful... but he's not an asshole, and I have more respect here for him than I have for most people who are anti-gay... because of how he handled himself.

AllIn All It's Not So Bad
02-21-2012, 06:07 PM
I wish more right wingers were like him/her/whatever you are.

jacknife737
02-21-2012, 06:55 PM
Bigotry is always ok, as long as it's worded nicely.

Llamas
02-21-2012, 06:57 PM
Bigotry is always ok, as long as it's worded nicely.

He hasn't shown any animosity... I wouldn't call it bigotry. Minus the terrible analogy, all he really said here is that he thinks it's sinful to be gay.

Though he does believe being gay is a choice... there he's just flat out wrong.

Little_Miss_1565
02-21-2012, 09:17 PM
The absolute least you can ask for in people who hold beliefs you don't agree with is that they aren't a dick about it.

Baldwin
02-22-2012, 01:48 AM
Though he does believe being gay is a choice... there he's just flat out wrong.

I'm assuming he meant being openly gay and/or living a gay lifestyle.