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View Full Version : Do you live life unsure of whether or not it has any meaning?



bighead384
05-12-2012, 07:21 PM
Answers are anonymous.

You can discuss this if you want. Or not, it's cool.

WebDudette
05-13-2012, 11:08 PM
You can try your hardest, but you'll only get so far. In the end, does it really even matter?

Chainsaw
05-14-2012, 02:04 AM
I don't like the third option. It makes it seem like if I choose the first one, I'm admitting I have nothing to live for.

Jojan
05-14-2012, 03:42 AM
I would like to have the option "No, I've haven't found meaning in life and things worth living for."

Llamas
05-14-2012, 04:06 AM
You can try your hardest, but you'll only get so far. In the end, does it really even matter?

There doesn't seem to be anymore hope for days which are better.

Static_Martyr
05-14-2012, 09:08 AM
In a philosophically objectivist sense, it seems rational to me to say that life doesn't have any inherent meaning; that's like saying that a tree has inherent meaning, or a piece of paper has inherent meaning. It's a meaningless statement; meaning and significance are philosophically-subjective concepts, which rely on pre-established criteria to determine whether the purposes the item in question is capable of fulfilling match up with what is desired by the party doing the questioning --- take language, for instance. If a person writes a message in a particular code and sends it to someone, but then that someone doesn't understand the message, the does the message have any meaning? For the person sending it, yes, because he or she can come back later and read the message and remember what it meant, regardless of how much time as passed (so long as he/she has retained the code). But for the person receiving the message, it's utterly meaningless. Neither of these things speak to the "objective" significance of the message; it's meaningful IF you understand it, it's not IF you don't.

So, owing to that analogy, life is not inherently with *or* without meaning. That's not a negative thing, though. Since meaning is a subjective concept, that means we can't rely on life itself to magically bestow upon us a sense of "greater meaning," but that also means that there's nothing stopping us from appreciating life as we're living it, and finding things which give us a sense of fulfillment. In that sense, life is both your greatest freedom *and* your greatest responsibility --- if your life is meaningless or purposeless, then in many cases, you really have only yourself to blame.

Lord Phidias
05-14-2012, 09:21 AM
If we took Ixnay on The Hombre as the Bible or something like that, the meaning of life would be Mota!

Outerspaceman21
05-14-2012, 12:00 PM
I agree with Static. The idea of meaning is purely subjective.

bighead384
05-14-2012, 12:09 PM
Since meaning is a subjective concept, that means we can't rely on life itself to magically bestow upon us a sense of "greater meaning," but that also means that there's nothing stopping us from appreciating life as we're living it, and finding things which give us a sense of fulfillment. In that sense, life is both your greatest freedom *and* your greatest responsibility --- if your life is meaningless or purposeless, then in many cases, you really have only yourself to blame.
But isn't the process of "appreciating" something or gaining a sense of "fulfillment" from something inextricably tied to the idea of meaning in the first place? It's seems to me like you're jumping past a very important part of the process of determining meaning in life.

For example, say you don't find anything meaningful in life. Then you have kids, and raising them becomes meaningful for you. But then, all you've really done is bought another human being into a situation in which you believe there is no meaning in (life itself). So why would a person with this mindset even have kids in the first place?

Isolated Fury
05-14-2012, 12:35 PM
For example, say you don't find anything meaningful in life. Then you have kids, and raising them becomes meaningful for you. But then, all you've really done is bought another human being into a situation in which you believe there is no meaning in (life itself). So why would a person with this mindset even have kids in the first place?
I agree with Static_Martyr. It's subjective. And really, you just proved it in a little contradictory statement. The "meaning" of life changes from person to person. In the case you gave as an example, it's birthing, caring for, and developing another person. They brought that person into the world to do the same thing. They have already fulfilled their "meaning" of life. And it doesn't have to continue through to the next generation. As stated before, one person (father) will have a different interpretation of life as another person (child). The child can go on to obtain whatever booyah they aim to achieve. The cycle will continue. But as far as the father is concerned, he has found the meaning of life and grabbed it by the taint.

bighead384
05-14-2012, 01:01 PM
I agree with Static_Martyr. It's subjective. And really, you just proved it in a little contradictory statement. The "meaning" of life changes from person to person. In the case you gave as an example, it's birthing, caring for, and developing another person. They brought that person into the world to do the same thing. They have already fulfilled their "meaning" of life. And it doesn't have to continue through to the next generation. As stated before, one person (father) will have a different interpretation of life as another person (child). The child can go on to obtain whatever booyah they aim to achieve. The cycle will continue. But as far as the father is concerned, he has found the meaning of life and grabbed it by the taint.
Calling the meaning of life "subjective" seems to assume that there is a meaning for each individual to find, but perhaps there isn't. Maybe that's just me, though.

Again, it seems to me that you're jumping a step in the process of how a person finds meaning. To be specific, it's a question of "why?". And in the example of raising a child, the question is: why would a person who hasn't found meaning in life decide to bring another person into this world? If a person who hasn't found any meaning in life has a child, that person is not answering the question of meaning. They're simply putting a new human being into a situation in which they will not have an answer to that question, either. It's possible that they might find a meaning of their own, but is that really a motivation to procreate?

Little_Miss_1565
05-14-2012, 01:06 PM
Why does life have to have meaning in order for it to be worth living?

Isolated Fury
05-14-2012, 01:19 PM
Calling the meaning of life "subjective" seems to assume that there is a meaning for each individual to find, but perhaps there isn't. Maybe that's just me, though.

Again, it seems to me that you're jumping a step in the process of how a person finds meaning. To be specific, it's a question of "why?". And in the example of raising a child, the question is: why would a person who hasn't found meaning in life decide to bring another person into this world? If a person who hasn't found any meaning in life has a child, that person is not answering the question. They're just putting a new human being into a situation where they won't have an answer to that question, either. It's possible that they might find a meaning of their own, but is that really a motivation to procreate?
You're assuming that the child was brought into the world for the purpose of fulfilling the life goal. Take me for instance. I fit perfectly into your scenario. I was 22 years old. I had no idea what my meaning of life was or how I'd obtain it if I had known. And then cue my daughter's birth. I'll be the first person to say it: my daughter was not a planned birth. At all. I wasn't trying to answer a question with her birth. But after she reached this world, I knew that my entire life will be devoted to her. I will do anything, go anywhere, confront anyone for any reason at any time for the sake of her livelihood and the livelihood of any children I have from now on. That is my meaning to life. By your logic since I didn't have the meaning of life figured out, I should have aborted her when we got the news. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. It's not a matter of procreating. It's a matter of providing a safe, happy, productive life for my child(ren).

bighead384
05-14-2012, 02:09 PM
You're assuming that the child was brought into the world for the purpose of fulfilling the life goal. Take me for instance. I fit perfectly into your scenario. I was 22 years old. I had no idea what my meaning of life was or how I'd obtain it if I had known. And then cue my daughter's birth. I'll be the first person to say it: my daughter was not a planned birth. At all. I wasn't trying to answer a question with her birth. But after she reached this world, I knew that my entire life will be devoted to her. I will do anything, go anywhere, confront anyone for any reason at any time for the sake of her livelihood and the livelihood of any children I have from now on. That is my meaning to life. By your logic since I didn't have the meaning of life figured out, I should have aborted her when we got the news. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. It's not a matter of procreating. It's a matter of providing a safe, happy, productive life for my child(ren).You named your daughter "Ren"? That's interesting. lol j/k j/k gotcha

Anyway, I would say that my question here has a lot to do with motivation. And since you did not intend to have a child, that's sort of a different question. Also, whether or not I understand it, I also am somewhat familiar with the feeling you describe, although I don't understand how it is rational for the reasons that I mentioned earlier: if I have not found any meaning, then why would I find it meaningful to bring another person into situation in which I haven't found meaning?


Why does life have to have meaning in order for it to be worth living?
I would say that if we are going to lead lives in which many, many people are spending the majority of their time either sleeping or doing shitty work in order to stay alive, it's hard to not demand meaning. It's often hard for me to think that occasionally experiencing pleasure is a good reason to happily press on.

Static_Martyr
05-15-2012, 02:10 PM
But isn't the process of "appreciating" something or gaining a sense of "fulfillment" from something inextricably tied to the idea of meaning in the first place? It's seems to me like you're jumping past a very important part of the process of determining meaning in life.

For example, say you don't find anything meaningful in life. Then you have kids, and raising them becomes meaningful for you. But then, all you've really done is bought another human being into a situation in which you believe there is no meaning in (life itself). So why would a person with this mindset even have kids in the first place?

(1) "Appreciating" just means that we're glad it's here. That doesn't necessarily mean it has to have some greater philosophical significance; I'm glad this can of pink lemonade is here in front of me because I like sweet drinks, not because the can or the drink inside has some sort of inherent "meaning." I'm appreciating the taste, not the "significance of the taste." I honestly just don't think that far ahead about things I enjoy; I enjoy them because I enjoy them, simple as that. And although it's fun to ask the hypothetical question of "why do I enjoy them, though?", that's more of an arbitrary scientific concern --- if there is some complicated biological reason as to why I enjoy sweet drinks, for instance, then understanding that reason won't change the fact that I enjoy them. Same goes for more complex situations, and life in general --- I enjoy things because I enjoy them. So in that sense you might even say that the "philosophical" component of meaning is really just a fancy tautology.

(2) You're confusing the feeling of fulfillment with actual, objective fulfillment --- and I'm arguing that the latter probably doesn't exist, because it's a meaningless term. How can someone be "objectively fulfilled," when fulfillment is a subjective experience? You might say that it is in some sense "objectively true" THAT someone feels fulfilled, but ultimately, the fulfillment itself is unique to that person's experience, ergo, it does not exist outside of them, ergo, fulfillment is a subjective experience.

To call someone "objectively fulfilled" in that sense would be similar to saying that something is "objectively desired." By whom? Desire is subjective as well; there needs to be a (subjective) party doing the desiring in order for them to FIND the object desirable. Something can only be desirable in a subjective sense (because there is no inherent quality of the object which binds us to desire it, but rather, it is the quality of *ourselves* which leads us to desire it). If there is no "desirer," then there is no desire, simple as that. Likewise, if there is no entity which finds meaning in something, then there is no meaning in that something. That may sound negative or nihilistic, but it really makes quite a lot of sense if you discard all the baggage that terms like "meaningless" and "without significance" have in common dialogue. In a philosophical sense, "meaningless" isn't an insult at all but just another descriptive term.

Little_Miss_1565
05-15-2012, 02:57 PM
I would say that if we are going to lead lives in which many, many people are spending the majority of their time either sleeping or doing shitty work in order to stay alive, it's hard to not demand meaning. It's often hard for me to think that occasionally experiencing pleasure is a good reason to happily press on.

I think the purpose of life is living. In that process, there are high points and there are low points. At the end of it, there is nothing. Attachment to suffering is what creates suffering in life. I have a great job now, but I've had shitty jobs in the recept past, and while it's hard not to be pissed off about that, what causes people to be pissed off in life is the notion that they somehow deserve better. I realize now I "deserve" nothing in this life, and situations are what I make of them. #zenmaster

ad8
05-15-2012, 03:20 PM
I would have said something, but then Static said everything so now I am just going to appreciate Jojan's post.


Well, I guess I can also say something about this:

But isn't the process of "appreciating" something or gaining a sense of "fulfillment" from something inextricably tied to the idea of meaning in the first place? It's seems to me like you're jumping past a very important part of the process of determining meaning in life.

For example, say you don't find anything meaningful in life. Then you have kids, and raising them becomes meaningful for you. But then, all you've really done is bought another human being into a situation in which you believe there is no meaning in (life itself). So why would a person with this mindset even have kids in the first place?
I think this is a good example of how difficult philosophical discussions get if some really ambiguous term like "meaning" is involved. What Static was getting at was that he thinks that there is no ultimate meaning of life, no purpose that the existence of living beings or to be even more abstract, charged particles that form atoms serves. If one talks about meaning as a cognitive construct, as basically a word to describe personal relevance in any way, then meaning surely does exist in different forms for every being, just for the sheer influence of the environment on the life of any given individual.
Wow, that felt like one sentence with three commas too many... :o

Llamas
05-15-2012, 04:21 PM
I would say that if we are going to lead lives in which many, many people are spending the majority of their time either sleeping or doing shitty work in order to stay alive, it's hard to not demand meaning. It's often hard for me to think that occasionally experiencing pleasure is a good reason to happily press on.

Sometimes your posts make me so very sad. It's unintentional, I'm sure, but you definitely seem like a very unhappy person. On one hand, it's annoying for someone to be so down about everything; on the other hand, I feel bad for you. It really sounds to me like you could use a giant, drastic change in your life.

I enjoy my work (though I've had shitty ones in the past, but they were always a way to get toward my goal of enjoyable work), and spending the majority of your time sleeping?! >12 hours a day?? If you aren't exaggerating, that's truly depressing :-/ I don't have a clue what the meaning of life is, and it's honestly not something I find myself thinking or wondering about.

This whole thread adds further weight to the idea that religious people, on average, are less happy than atheists. Feel an emptiness, a hole deep inside? Fill it with a fully loaded, pre-packaged meaning of life! I know that's not what bighead is talking about, but it just makes me think of that...

mrconeman
05-15-2012, 06:13 PM
Why does life have to have meaning in order for it to be worth living?

Pretty much exactly what I was going to post.

Humanity, and all life, is just one huge meaningless cosmic accident. That does *NOT* mean it can't be really awesome, quite the contrary.

AllIn All It's Not So Bad
05-15-2012, 06:24 PM
That does *NOT* mean it can't be really awesome, quite the contrary.

True story. See, my meaning of life is to have fun and make it bitchin.
AMIRITE?!?!?

WebDudette
05-16-2012, 03:42 AM
You want to know what I live for? I live for getting drunk and laughing until I cry with friends, I live for good beer, for good food, for rewarding relationships, for falling in and out of love, for music, and for movies.

If you looked it up on this forum, you'd find that within the last year or two I've said that I wish I went to sleep and never woke up, that I believed that was possibly the best thing that could happen. I don't exactly feel that way anymore, nothing exceptionally spectacular has happened since then, I just don't welcome death like I used to I guess.

Do I think life has any meaning? No, not particularly. If you're fortunate enough to be in that .01% of people who actually changes the world for the better for all future generations, than maybe. In the end though, everyone is going to fucking die, and that;'s the end of it. I still feel like I should make the best of what I have, enjoy life as much as I can, and die happy. I don't actually practice that in real life though, I can be a seriously miserable piece of shit.

TL;DR: I agree with Sarah.

Harleyquiiinn
05-16-2012, 05:54 AM
I am not sure life has a meaning but I found a meaning to my life in helping those who think life has a meaning...

Does that make sense ?

bighead384
05-16-2012, 08:29 AM
(1) "Appreciating" just means that we're glad it's here. That doesn't necessarily mean it has to have some greater philosophical significance; I'm glad this can of pink lemonade is here in front of me because I like sweet drinks, not because the can or the drink inside has some sort of inherent "meaning." I'm appreciating the taste, not the "significance of the taste." I honestly just don't think that far ahead about things I enjoy; I enjoy them because I enjoy them, simple as that. And although it's fun to ask the hypothetical question of "why do I enjoy them, though?", that's more of an arbitrary scientific concern --- if there is some complicated biological reason as to why I enjoy sweet drinks, for instance, then understanding that reason won't change the fact that I enjoy them. Same goes for more complex situations, and life in general --- I enjoy things because I enjoy them. So in that sense you might even say that the "philosophical" component of meaning is really just a fancy tautology.

(2) You're confusing the feeling of fulfillment with actual, objective fulfillment --- and I'm arguing that the latter probably doesn't exist, because it's a meaningless term. How can someone be "objectively fulfilled," when fulfillment is a subjective experience? You might say that it is in some sense "objectively true" THAT someone feels fulfilled, but ultimately, the fulfillment itself is unique to that person's experience, ergo, it does not exist outside of them, ergo, fulfillment is a subjective experience.

To call someone "objectively fulfilled" in that sense would be similar to saying that something is "objectively desired." By whom? Desire is subjective as well; there needs to be a (subjective) party doing the desiring in order for them to FIND the object desirable. Something can only be desirable in a subjective sense (because there is no inherent quality of the object which binds us to desire it, but rather, it is the quality of *ourselves* which leads us to desire it). If there is no "desirer," then there is no desire, simple as that. Likewise, if there is no entity which finds meaning in something, then there is no meaning in that something. That may sound negative or nihilistic, but it really makes quite a lot of sense if you discard all the baggage that terms like "meaningless" and "without significance" have in common dialogue. In a philosophical sense, "meaningless" isn't an insult at all but just another descriptive term.
I feel like everything you've said about appreciation and enjoyment of things, and how that could factor in to a person's overall enjoyment of life.

I wish that I could simply think "there are many enjoyable things in life/things that I appreciate for whatever reason, and that's good enough for me".

However, I don't understand how people can avoid weighing the amount of enjoyable things versus the amount of unenjoyable, shitty things that most people on this planet do the majority of the time. In small decisions in life, I weigh the good versus the bad to decide whether a course of action is worthwhile. Why wouldn't I be doing that when I analyze life? I'm quite curious as to your specific feelings on this way of looking at things. There's so much more that sucks compared to pleasure. And if you have clinical depression, making the few moments of enjoyment even less enjoyable, then who could blame you for hating life?

Thanks for the responses folks, but I'm a bit overwhelmed to respond to all of them at this moment.

killer_queen
05-16-2012, 02:10 PM
I don't know how old bighead is but this is what I think: people are too impatient when it comes to find their meaning of life. You can't just expect to find what's worth living for in your mid twenties. If you have already found it, it means you are very lucky; if you haven't that's what it's supposed to be. Wait for it. Better yet search for it. The search itself makes life worth living. Don't let the biographies about celebrities who wanted to be a musician or a writer since they were five fool you. These things take time and don't easily land on your lap.

Static_Martyr
05-16-2012, 04:17 PM
However, I don't understand how people can avoid weighing the amount of enjoyable things versus the amount of unenjoyable, shitty things that most people on this planet do the majority of the time. In small decisions in life, I weigh the good versus the bad to decide whether a course of action is worthwhile. Why wouldn't I be doing that when I analyze life? I'm quite curious as to your specific feelings on this way of looking at things. There's so much more that sucks compared to pleasure. And if you have clinical depression, making the few moments of enjoyment even less enjoyable, then who could blame you for hating life?

WARNING: incoming rant-slash-article!

For one, I DO have clinical depression. I have a strict routine to my life that I become very, very, VERY distressed when I have to break --- for example, when I started my new job, I felt like I was going to throw up for like three or four days, just from the stress of having to adapt to a new environment and new people. I actually felt so unhappy that the only word I can think of to describe my feelings at the time is "sheer existential horror at the scheme of my life and how little I have managed to accomplish by this point." I had a lot of trouble rationalizing the situation to myself, because I was thinking about what this job "means" in the greater scheme of things --- "what is the point of working here? How long will I be working here? Will I be able to actually save the money I make here, or will it just be a vicious cycle of poverty where I barely make enough to survive and end up getting stuck here for another 5 or 6 years until I burn out and change jobs again?" Hearing my manager's stories about being there 7 years (and hearing her present this as if it was something to be PROUD of) didn't make me feel any better. But that's part of my issue; I always try to arrange things in my mind in the context of a routine or a process, with a clear defining beginning and end point.

As I am repeatedly forced by life to acknowledge, not everything can be organized in that context. Sometimes things change quickly, and we have to adapt to them quickly, like when my doctor found a lump on my thyroid during a routine visit for stomach cramps and mild swallowing problems, and had to undergo a $12,000 surgery the very next week to get my left thyroid removed so they could check it for cancer (and then, the next week, when they called and told me it *was* cancer, and they had to remove the OTHER half, so I had to go back in for the same surgery again the very next week, right as I was getting over the first one, yay :D); I found out I had to take synthroid (synthetic thyroid hormone) for the rest of my life, and I got all upset about that because I realized that if something were to happen, and I became unable to afford my prescription for any long period of time, my health would start to decline very quickly. Basically, at this point I was wondering what the point of even trying to make something of my life was --- after all, why spend two years working when a single medical problem can come up overnight and utterly decimate your savings? If I hadn't been under my mother's insurance at the time (thanks to Obamacare for that), then I would not have been able to afford it *at all.*

Anyway, I did manage to work through those situations, and now I'm a lot better :D One thing that helped me was to realize that we are thinking of things in the context of our 21st-century society and modern technology. I was all depressed because my Oh So Perfect Routine of Life had been disrupted because of something that was completely and utterly beyond my control --- I exercise daily, I eat well, I take good care of myself, and yet that still happened to me at a young age (I'm 23 going on 24). It made me feel really, really powerless in the grand scheme of things, and what's more is it made me realize that if I HADN'T been able to afford treatment, that would've been it. The world would go on like it always does, I would get sicker and sicker, and if it had spread beyond my thyroid, I would probably have died in a few years. And there would be no "greater meaning" to any of it; I would simply cease to exist, and things would keep going. If I may quote Bad Religion, "The world won't stop without you." So I was thinking, "Oh, poor me, now I have to take this annoying medication for the rest of my life, just to keep my health in order. This is so unfair!"

But when I stopped to think about all of that in terms of, say, medieval times, I realized that I am very lucky in a number of ways. For one, there were three other similar kinds of cancer I could have easily contracted that WOULD have killed me, because they would've been completely inoperable. Second, if I had continued going to the same doctor I'd BEEN seeing up to that point (instead of seeking a second opinion), he would've just prescribed me more pepcid for my stomach and throat issues (acid reflux) and I may never have been diagnosed in time to operate. Third, if I had had the misfortune to have been born in a slightly earlier time period --- even just a hundred years or so --- I would almost certainly have died, if not from the cancer itself then certainly from the surgery, as we did not even have a working hygiene theory until very recently.

Likewise, looking at the synthroid issue....if I thought of it in the above terms, I realized that I was very lucky that such a drug even exists. If it didn't, I wouldn't have the luxury of complaining that I "have to take it to live," in fact, I would simply not live at all. So in that sense, I'm very grateful that human society has produced such things :D

I mean, think about it: for billions of years, life existed on earth in a raw state --- your body was your ONLY means of survival. If it had a defect, or it broke, that was the END of your life. Your life was almost guaranteed to be 90% suffering, and maybe 10% enjoyment (food, reproduction, etc., maybe a little recreation). For BILLIONS of years this was. Only recently (in geological time, that is), with the evolution of group organisms and social thinking, has there begun to emerge a trend of organisms not being dependent solely on their own bodies to survive. Thanks to the evolution of intelligent human brains, we are now able to continue living even after our bodies have developed fatal flaws or malfunctions. Given that as a fact, I have taken up somewhat of an interest in seeing where things go from here, and I am grateful that I'm able to live as long as I am. If I died today, there would be a lot of things I would miss out on, that I would be all too aware of. I may never know what they all amount to, or what they "mean" in the greater scheme of things, but when I look at my place in the universe and the odds of my survival (when weighed against the improvements of those odds that human society has engineered), I find that today's society, broken as it may be, is nowhere NEAR as savage or "meaningless" as primal earth before the age of humans. When I think of it that way, to take my life lightly, or to pretend that it is not important just because it is not epic in proportion, seems like a terrible waste, itself of an epic proportion. And if I ever need humbling, I just remind myself: after all that, I could STILL go and die by some stupid thing like an accident, or another disease or something.

If you think there is suffering in the world today, just think.....THIS is a state of DECREASED suffering, compared to the dawn of the age of man. We have it GOOD compared to our ancestors. We complain because we have to work 10 hours a day, or 12? They had to work *all day every day* just to make sure food was on the table. Think about how bad that would suck. Then look at your life and think, maybe this does suck a bit, but it's not so bad. And it could be a LOT worse.

Defender
05-16-2012, 11:26 PM
You can't just expect to find what's worth living for in your mid twenties. If you have already found it, it means you are very lucky;

I agree with that. I was always believing that the meaning of life is to make a family and living happy. I am not sure about that now. I know something like that is important for everybody's life but I don't know if it's the real meaning of life. I don't think it's so easy to find it out. It's subjective,though.

Offspring-Junkie
05-16-2012, 11:59 PM
I think the purpose of life is living. In that process, there are high points and there are low points. At the end of it, there is nothing. Attachment to suffering is what creates suffering in life. I have a great job now, but I've had shitty jobs in the recept past, and while it's hard not to be pissed off about that, what causes people to be pissed off in life is the notion that they somehow deserve better. I realize now I "deserve" nothing in this life, and situations are what I make of them. #zenmaster

IN YOUR FACE

Seriously, that's true.

Zenmaster lol.

TheNooseIsFalling
05-17-2012, 02:24 AM
One's life shouldn't have a predestined, universal meaning, like a purpose, that they live by, unless it's things they find worth living for. There's a difference between the two, and the first one, if such a thing exists for each person, I think, is better left alone, because it's probably a lot more miserable than the second one anyway.



...

Yeah, I like this. I've never really given this subject much conscious thought actually, but I can agree with everything you said here.