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Jebus
11-17-2012, 12:18 AM
RIP Twinkies

"Melyssa K" Kennedy
11-17-2012, 12:51 AM
I haven't eaten twinkies since I was a kid. I eat cookies, so I'm okay with this.

Llamas
11-17-2012, 04:06 AM
I honestly wouldn't be sad if all the businesses whose products or services only really *hurt* people went out of business. Hostess shit is preserved chemical sugar. It's disgusting and we're better off not being able to eat it :P I wouldn't mind if fast food joints were next.

samseby
11-17-2012, 05:17 AM
I honestly wouldn't be sad if all the businesses whose products or services only really *hurt* people went out of business. Hostess shit is preserved chemical sugar. It's disgusting and we're better off not being able to eat it :P I wouldn't mind if fast food joints were next.

Yeah, that'd be awesome ...

MOTO13
11-17-2012, 05:29 AM
Unions, gotta love their mentality...all or nothing.

Llamas
11-17-2012, 06:13 AM
Unions, gotta love their mentality...all or nothing.
Where do unions come into play? Like, what do unions have to do with this thread at all? lol.

_Lost_
11-17-2012, 07:07 AM
The employees went on strike, because the company tried to make them sign new contracts that slashed their salaries and benefits. The company was trying to put their bad spending habits and excessive management salaries on the labor force. Thus, the company is shutting down.

MOTO13
11-17-2012, 07:28 AM
Where do unions come into play? Like, what do unions have to do with this thread at all? lol.

right?...lol. I guess I simply assumed everyone knew what everyone knew. The owners told the union if they keep up with the strike, the company would be forced into bancruptcy. The union, in their infinite wisdom, simply ignored reality. So they closed it down. Now we have more unemployed americans which I hate to see. Merry Christmas. Unions are an out-moded, outdated, archaic, criminal enterprise that needs to die off quickly. I feel bad for the poor sob's that simply wanted to work.

Llamas
11-17-2012, 08:12 AM
The employees went on strike, because the company tried to make them sign new contracts that slashed their salaries and benefits. The company was trying to put their bad spending habits and excessive management salaries on the labor force. Thus, the company is shutting down.

Ah, thanks. I haven't really been following this thing at all - I just saw it posted here, and a humorous list of the funniest responses to the situation. I didn't know why they went out of business. Well, good for the employees, standing up for themselves. They lost this battle, but they were working for a shitty company to begin with.

On a side note, it's interesting when guys at the top of the companies force salary and benefit slashes upon their peons, while they continue to live their wealthy lifestyles. If you messed up with your spending and management salaries, why don't the slashes ever fall on THEIR shoulders? A 10% decrease in salaries for the peons would be a 2% decrease in the salaries of the top dogs. I saw the same thing happening at one of the two shitty language agencies I've worked for; the owners and management bought a bunch of flat-screen TVs and new computers to try to promote their school, and then realized they couldn't actually afford to do that. So they tried to decrease teacher salaries by 10%, while my bosses had no problems and their salaries remained the same. I left.

My current boss is making idiotic decisions, himself. He bought a new office, had it renovated with wood floors and wooden doors, and then bought furniture for it that cost $5000+ a piece. Now he can't afford to pay the bills on his offices while still maintaining his wealthy lifestyle, so he's trying to not pay his teachers. He's on his way to going out of business, as well, and due to his treatment of teachers, we're leaving very quickly. He's now down to two native speakers, both of us planning to leave in the next few months, and I just found out he hired some old Australian guy who's uncertified and has no teaching experience. Overall, he's gone from 15 teachers to I think 9? in the last year. He's fucking himself over and will be bankrupt very soon. I will point and laugh while I snatch up the rest of* his clients.

*Two of his clients (formerly my students) have already come to me and asked me for private lessons because they can't stand how he treats people (like they're beneath him, like they're just money and a contract) and how he's always trying to sell them more and more. I've already gotten two of them; when he falls, 60 more students I currently teach will be without lessons. I'm just waiting patiently. :)

_Lost_
11-17-2012, 08:55 AM
Moto, blaming the unions is ignorant. I wish they were more common actually. They keep companies from underpaying people or cutting their benefits. The company didn't fall because of the union. They screwed themselves up the ass by making poor business decisions and continuing to give their higher ups lavish salaries. If the head of the company was trying to cut the salaries of the higher ups, instead of the workers, that would never fly. Now the company is trying to act like it was the union in the wrong? really?

MOTO13
11-17-2012, 09:10 AM
Ok...why are unions going the way of the dodo then? Outdated phylosophy that as far as I am concerned, cannot die soon enough. They are basically using an extortion-racketeering thug method of pushing companies around and getting their way. They use their union membership as an idiot montra, rarely make consessions, and have this dipshit idea of all or nothing. Either you stand 100% with unions and support anything and everything they want, or you are the enemy. No common ground. They hold companies hostage through their ridiculous demands. Unions have caused serious damage over the past 30 years. Fuck the unions. I hope they die a miserable death.

Lizardus
11-17-2012, 10:07 AM
Zombieland...Never 4 get!

bighead384
11-17-2012, 10:54 AM
They use their union membership as an idiot montra, rarely make consessions, and have this dipshit idea of all or nothing. Either you stand 100% with unions and support anything and everything they want, or you are the enemy. No common ground. They hold companies hostage through their ridiculous demands.

Hey jackass...
http://www.businessinsider.com/corporate-profits-just-hit-an-all-time-high-wages-just-hit-an-all-time-low-2012-6
Still think it's a good time to compromise?

_Lost_
11-17-2012, 11:08 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Px-CBHd0miI

MOTO13
11-17-2012, 11:22 AM
First off, I am not a jackass. I have asked people. I am not sure I actually trust that graph too much. One reason is I do not know exactly which corps are in there. Maybe some companies are cutting costs to finally make a friggin progit afer years of zero profits. Maybe they are holding onto profits right now for future repair/replacement...pension liability, other contingent liabilities or a miriad of other reasons. I can make graphs too. Ones that show some corps getting pummeled. Profit good...union bad. Would you rather you had corps NOT amking money? If that is your opinion, you're a short sighted dipshit. Also, go yank your money out of your 401(k) right now. Cause you say one thing...profit/corps bad...then you bitch and moan when your 401(k) pension takes a friggin nose dive.

Lizardus
11-17-2012, 11:28 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Px-CBHd0miI

Pretty much this.

bighead384
11-17-2012, 11:31 AM
I can make graphs too. Ones that show some corps getting pummeled. Profit good...union bad. Would you rather you had corps NOT amking money? If that is your opinion, you're a short sighted dipshit. Also, go yank your money out of your 401(k) right now. Cause you say one thing...profit/corps bad...then you bitch and moan when your 401(k) pension takes a friggin nose dive.

So your plan is to single out corporations that are getting pummeled, and create a misleading graph out of it? Instead of using data that looks at all corporations?

And no, I never said I'd rather have corporations not making any money. Although I can see why you'd wish I had said that so you can unload your tea party talking points on me.

_Lost_
11-17-2012, 11:39 AM
You can certainly make graphs that show companies with low profit margins, but chances are that a lot of that shrink within the company has more to do with poor decisions and lavish spending, not unions demanding their employees get paid a wage they can actually live on. I mean, look at the Walmart strikes.

MOTO13
11-17-2012, 12:36 PM
You can certainly make graphs that show companies with low profit margins, but chances are that a lot of that shrink within the company has more to do with poor decisions and lavish spending, not unions demanding their employees get paid a wage they can actually live on. I mean, look at the Walmart strikes.

No...a shit ton has to do with the devaluation of the dollar. Also, it has to do with years of low corp profits where the loss carry forward may be running thin. I will agree with one thing, there are corp greed heads, meaning the top tier CEO's and presidents, making entirely too much money based upon the performance of the companies.

You want to bitch about lavish spending? You need to get one thing straight that you simply do not understand...these are PRIVATE corportaions, they can spend THEIR money anyway god damn way they choose. It is the stockholder or the owner that swings the hammer. Now, if you are serious about pissing money down rat holes of continued failure and abuse, look no farther than the federal government. A government that exists for one reason...to spend your money. There has never been an agency run efficiently, there has never been a program run effectively...yet you people allowed a fucking corrupt government take control of approx 20% of the economy with this Obamacare bullshit. Staggeringly and mind-numbingly stupid.

_Lost_
11-17-2012, 01:02 PM
Nobody is bitching but you. It seems the only thing you are capable of.

Simply put, yes, a private corporation can spend their money as they please. however, people should stop acting shocked that employees don't accept CEOs spending millions on themselves yet cutting the wages of the labor force.

MOTO13
11-17-2012, 01:15 PM
ok...you bitch about the fallacy that unions are good and not the reason for Hostess going under. I say your full of shit. You complain that corps make too much money, yet they pay taxes...yet, you don't mind those people who have never paid a dime of federal tax in their lives yet suck off the system that is supported by taxes paid by corporations and those of us that pay taxes. You complain that corps waste money, yet it is their's to waste or spend how they see fit. You support a president who ramrodded and took over 20% of the entire US economy when there has NEVER been a successful federal program in the history of this country that was not rampant with waste, fraud and abuse. I don't know, you simply make no sense.

_Lost_
11-17-2012, 01:21 PM
sources? I think you have me confused with someone else. That or you are imaging things. Nowhere have I ever said anything like that.

Troll is a troll, I guess.

Tiny Vessels
11-17-2012, 07:43 PM
MOTO- You're right you're not a jackass. Yanking money out of your 401K is not a good thing. You do that and there is a penalty you have to pay. You believe that the unions had something to with Hostess shutting down? You're wrong. If the unions truly had something to do with it, it would have been all over the news, we would have heard of strikes happening but no there was none of that. The company just closed and the unions are NOT to blame. Sorry.

_Lost_- Moto likes to bitch about everything it's just him. It makes him happy :)

Llamas
11-18-2012, 06:33 AM
No...a shit ton has to do with the devaluation of the dollar. Also, it has to do with years of low corp profits where the loss carry forward may be running thin. I will agree with one thing, there are corp greed heads, meaning the top tier CEO's and presidents, making entirely too much money based upon the performance of the companies.

You want to bitch about lavish spending? You need to get one thing straight that you simply do not understand...these are PRIVATE corportaions, they can spend THEIR money anyway god damn way they choose. It is the stockholder or the owner that swings the hammer. Now, if you are serious about pissing money down rat holes of continued failure and abuse, look no farther than the federal government. A government that exists for one reason...to spend your money. There has never been an agency run efficiently, there has never been a program run effectively...yet you people allowed a fucking corrupt government take control of approx 20% of the economy with this Obamacare bullshit. Staggeringly and mind-numbingly stupid.

No shit, they can spend their money how they want. They can waste it til there's nothing left if they want. But when they go out of business due to awful spending habits, they can't fool me into thinking its the union's fault. "Shit, we fucked up with our spending. Better slash our employees' salaries and benefits! Oh, they won't allow us to do that? Well, then let's make it look like it was their fault we went under."

MOTO13
11-18-2012, 07:11 AM
MOTO- You're right you're not a jackass. Yanking money out of your 401K is not a good thing. You do that and there is a penalty you have to pay. You believe that the unions had something to with Hostess shutting down? You're wrong. If the unions truly had something to do with it, it would have been all over the news, we would have heard of strikes happening but no there was none of that. The company just closed and the unions are NOT to blame. Sorry.

_Lost_- Moto likes to bitch about everything it's just him. It makes him happy :)

Hostess Brands -- the maker of such iconic baked goods as Twinkies, Drake's Devil Dogs and Wonder Bread -- announced Friday that it is asking a federal bankruptcy court for permission to close its operations, blaming a strike by bakers protesting a new contract imposed on them.

Oh...maybe there wasn't a strike...my bad. I guess nobody heard about the bakers strike. Must have been a dream I had. Yeah, Hostess, a $2 billion annual sales company just said one day...ehhh fuck it, close it down.

You pretty much missed the entire point on the 401(k) TV. And, I may be just subtley familiar with how pensions work. But thanks for the tax advice.

MOTO13
11-18-2012, 07:19 AM
No shit, they can spend their money how they want. They can waste it til there's nothing left if they want. But when they go out of business due to awful spending habits, they can't fool me into thinking its the union's fault. "Shit, we fucked up with our spending. Better slash our employees' salaries and benefits! Oh, they won't allow us to do that? Well, then let's make it look like it was their fault we went under."

You must really hate Obama then. Cause he has hammered deficit spending for the past 4 years and spent more money faster than any president in history. Still, the economy is for shit, gas doubled, dollar very weak, housing sucks. But you complain about private companies spending their money and pass on pissing away public funds. Private companies can do and spend how they see fit. Maybe they made errors. How much did it cost you? ZERO. It's a very bad situation. They owe you no explanation unless you are an investor. Maybe they were paying too high of wages. They offered a contract, it was declined, they closed. Now they are unemployed. Obviously the union members feel they were worth more, maybe they were. Based on what standard? They must have had options to decline the contract, go take the other options.

MOTO13
11-18-2012, 07:47 AM
Not my words...

If feel bad for the workers who weren't part of the idiotic bakers union but have zero sympathy for the idiots who were. Hostess was already in bankruptcy, they were out of money, broke, finished. They had a plan to try and claw their way back and the bakers said, "no".

What was Hostess offering?


The concessions, which affect both the bakery union and Teamsters, call for cuts in wages and benefits of 27 percent to 32 percent over the five-year contract, with an immediate wage cut of 8 percent, the bakery union said. The company stopped contributing to workers' pensions last year.
The bakery union represents about 5,680 Hostess workers, about 30 percent of Hostess' total work force.

Pretty steep cuts but still 68% to 73% > 0%.

Union idiots are free to choose this course of action but they are also going to have to live with the consequences of that choice. The important thing is that these people get no public assistance benefits whatsoever. In this economy there is no reason that people struggling to get by should subsidize people who throw away jobs.

People voted for irresponsibility, now they must get it. No soft landings, no pity. It's time for harsh lessons to be learned.

Godxilla
11-18-2012, 08:06 AM
Man, my parents were pissed about this. They spent all morning yesterday talking about Ring Dings, Ho Hos, and Twinkies.

What the fuck is a Ho Ho, anyway?

Tiny Vessels
11-18-2012, 10:44 AM
What the fuck is a Ho Ho, anyway?

It's gross, you're not missing anything.

Godxilla
11-18-2012, 12:36 PM
It's gross, you're not missing anything.

Okay. Thanks for telling me.

bighead384
11-18-2012, 01:54 PM
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/12767_10151317072356153_368892367_n.png

"Melyssa K" Kennedy
11-18-2012, 02:36 PM
Looks like people won't be able to buy Wonder bread anymore. It's one of the most popular bread brands in the Philly neighborhood where I grew up, probably because there was a Wonder bread bakery a few blocks from where I lived. Luckily, I eat Arnold bread.

Lizardus
11-18-2012, 03:12 PM
Luckily, I eat Arnold bread.

Is it made in California?

Llamas
11-18-2012, 03:22 PM
Ha, why am I not surprised that Hostess makes Wonder bread? That shit is awful. Worst bread ever.

_Lost_
11-18-2012, 03:31 PM
gas doubled

Gas currently costs me less per gallon than it did post-Katrina. Quit saying this cause it only makes you look like more of a dumbass. In 2010, it cost me half of what gas was costing during that same post-Katrina period.

Little_Miss_1565
11-18-2012, 03:36 PM
Moto, blaming the unions is ignorant. I wish they were more common actually. They keep companies from underpaying people or cutting their benefits. The company didn't fall because of the union. They screwed themselves up the ass by making poor business decisions and continuing to give their higher ups lavish salaries. If the head of the company was trying to cut the salaries of the higher ups, instead of the workers, that would never fly. Now the company is trying to act like it was the union in the wrong? really?

For real. The union gave back tons in retirement benefits and took a pay cut...but the union should have basically agreed to work for free. Right.

And besides, Hostess will be purchased anytime now. There's way too much equity in that brand to just fall away.

"Melyssa K" Kennedy
11-18-2012, 03:38 PM
Is it made in California?

I have no idea, I just know that it's so expensive I only buy it when it's on sale.

MOTO13
11-19-2012, 06:39 AM
Gas currently costs me less per gallon than it did post-Katrina. Quit saying this cause it only makes you look like more of a dumbass. In 2010, it cost me half of what gas was costing during that same post-Katrina period.

Hey dipshit...

November 2008...

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Gasoline prices declined for the 70th straight day, falling below the $1.87 per gallon mark, according to a national survey of credit card swipes at gasoline stations.

The national average fell 1.7 cents, sinking to the lowest level since Jan. 27, 2005, according to motorist group AAA. Over the last 70 days gas prices have plummeted 52%.

MOTO13
11-19-2012, 06:51 AM
I read somewhere that the union contracts were so muddled and broken up, they had agreements that Wonder Bread had to be delivered by itself or only with certain other items. Meaning that the treats were a seperate delivery route/driver/truck than the bread. Even though many times the same store received both. Real union efficiency there huh?

_Lost_
11-19-2012, 07:39 AM
wait... so you are telling me that gas prices finally dropped during the two months prior to an election? NO WAY! Doesn't have anything at all to do with that. :rolleyes: What about the fact that when Bush came into office, gas hovered right at the dollar mark and quickly doubled, at one point, going up over four.

MOTO13
11-19-2012, 08:07 AM
wait... so you are telling me that gas prices finally dropped during the two months prior to an election? NO WAY! Doesn't have anything at all to do with that. :rolleyes: What about the fact that when Bush came into office, gas hovered right at the dollar mark and quickly doubled, at one point, going up over four.

You notice that too huh?..lol. Gas prices actually dropped after the second debate a few weeks ago. I was stunned.

Gas prices go up and down, not doubt about that. Oil companies are fucking us. Since Obama has been in office, prices have risen consistently...doubling in less than 4 years.

Tiny Vessels
11-19-2012, 08:29 AM
You notice that too huh?..lol. Gas prices actually dropped after the second debate a few weeks ago. I was stunned.

Gas prices go up and down, not doubt about that. Oil companies are fucking us. Since Obama has been in office, prices have risen consistently...doubling in less than 4 years.

You're rigt the oil companies are fucking us but gas doubled worse with Bush than Obama.

Jebus
11-19-2012, 08:51 AM
Hey dipshit...

November 2008...

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Gasoline prices declined for the 70th straight day, falling below the $1.87 per gallon mark, according to a national survey of credit card swipes at gasoline stations.

The national average fell 1.7 cents, sinking to the lowest level since Jan. 27, 2005, according to motorist group AAA. Over the last 70 days gas prices have plummeted 52%.
The gas price was low because the economy was going down the tubes at the time. When demand is weak (or when expected demand is weak) oil prices tank. And not just oil. All commodities tanked. I mean, do you really think there was some type of innovative Bush gas policy that brought the price of gas down from 4 dollars in July to 2 dollars in November (http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?id=GASREGW) in a matter of months? No, it was the weak economy that did that. Plus most of the recent oil price increases this past decade have very little to do with US policy and more to do with the demand from emerging economies.

And guess what. The dollar was going up (http://research.stlouisfed.org/fredgraph.png?g=cX6) when the 2008 crash happened. What good did that do? If anything it made things worst.

MOTO13
11-19-2012, 09:00 AM
You're rigt the oil companies are fucking us but gas doubled worse with Bush than Obama.

Gas prices can take wild swings due to global demand and speculation. I do not doubt that. It happend during the Bush years. Gas rose like $.40/gal during Bush's first term. His second term when he took office it was like $1.80-$1.90/gal. When Obama took office it was almost exactly the same amount. Were there swings during these years? Yes. But it always came back down. Now, we are used to $3.50/gal or more and have been for several years. Obama is not addressing this. In a funny twist...Obama made a campaign stop at a texas gas station in 2008 during his campaign, made sure there were plenty of cameras there and blamed Bush for high gas prices. But, now Obama can do nothing and takes no blame for anything...he inhereted every problem.

MOTO13
11-19-2012, 12:55 PM
Apparently, Hostess is not dead. The union has decided to re-think thier stupidity and talk to management about a possible resolution.

Tiny Vessels
11-19-2012, 01:01 PM
Apparently, Hostess is not dead. The union has decided to re-think thier stupidity and talk to management about a possible resolution.

Oh. Well that's good people will still hopefully have their jobs.. I still don't like their products tho.

Little_Miss_1565
11-19-2012, 02:45 PM
Apparently, Hostess is not dead. The union has decided to re-think thier stupidity and talk to management about a possible resolution.

What exactly is left for the union to give back? They took a 60% cut in medical benefits, axed pensions, and took a 10% pay cut, all while the CEO got a 300% pay raise.

"Melyssa K" Kennedy
11-19-2012, 02:54 PM
What exactly is left for the union to give back? They took a 60% cut in medical benefits, axed pensions, and took a 10% pay cut, all while the CEO got a 300% pay raise.

Did he at least donate some of it, or was he selfish like I'm expecting and hog it all for himself?

MOTO13
11-19-2012, 03:02 PM
What exactly is left for the union to give back? They took a 60% cut in medical benefits, axed pensions, and took a 10% pay cut, all while the CEO got a 300% pay raise.

Hell, I don't know. I read that even though they went on strike, the union never formally rejected the contract. The judge stated that he did not understand why they even went on strike or some shit. I know one thing for sure...they were making too much dough though that's for darn sure. Get it? Making too much dough...? Kind of a play on words there referring to...forget it.

BagOfShenanigans
11-19-2012, 03:05 PM
People are selling twinkies on e-bay for hundreds of dollars. Imagine how pissed the buyers will be if Hostess doesn't die.

Tiny Vessels
11-19-2012, 03:09 PM
Hell, I don't know. I read that even though they went on strike, the union never formally rejected the contract. The judge stated that he did not understand why they even went on strike or some shit. I know one thing for sure...they were making too much dough though that's for darn sure. Get it? Making too much dough...? Kind of a play on words there referring to...forget it.

HA! That's so funny. Making too much dough... I would have never though of that...

(If you can't tell I'm being so sarcastic.)

Tiny Vessels
11-19-2012, 03:14 PM
People are selling twinkies on e-bay for hundreds of dollars. Imagine how pissed the buyers will be if Hostess doesn't die.

That's insane. Someone has to be an complete idiot to buy a $100 twinkie. Their not even good!!

Little_Miss_1565
11-19-2012, 03:16 PM
Hell, I don't know. I read that even though they went on strike, the union never formally rejected the contract. The judge stated that he did not understand why they even went on strike or some shit. I know one thing for sure...they were making too much dough though that's for darn sure. Get it? Making too much dough...? Kind of a play on words there referring to...forget it.

Oh, ok, so you have no idea how this is the union's fault, but it's the union's fault all the same. Seems legit.

jacknife737
11-19-2012, 06:22 PM
They'll just sell the rights to the recipe to another company: anyone stocking up or paying stupid prices for them is an idiot.

T-6005
11-19-2012, 06:36 PM
I don't really understand the hate towards unions going on here.

Unions have one job, and one job only - they represent the interests of the workers that are a part of them.

Benefits, overtime hours, employer-provided health coverage - these are all historically union-won victories.

And the 'thuggish' tactics you decry are the unions using one of the few strategies available to them - a crippling of the production process. Either through a removal of the labor force (a strike) or a takeover of the means of production.

In this case, the game had changed for the Bakers' Union. Taking a cut in benefits and an absurd cut in wages would not be in the interests of the workers - it's an absurd tactic by the employer to pretend that they are negotiating.

I very much doubt that Hostess ever had any other plan, staring into their second bankrupcy filing in a handful of years, than to dissolve and sell off their assets - including the brand. There is no negotiating in good faith any more - the modus operandi of corporations has become rapacious, predatory. Production is secondary to profits, and that mentality (unlike, unfortunately, the concentrated wealth it entails) trickles down through raised hours, cut benefits, no overtime.

Unions are one of the few remaining vestiges that hold out against the new labour paradigm - in that sense, they are definitely painted with the neo-Luddite tar brush since they are by and large skilled labour being replaced by automation+unskilled labour.

While you can see it as "I can't believe these people are standing in the way of progress!", Unions are doing their jobs - they represent (by-and-large) local labour forces. That's spending money in the local economy. By packing up the means of production and ignoring the union's negotiation process, it is pretty clear that you're going to end up with fat-cat money glut and unemployed workers that can't stimulate the local economy. Look at what happened to Detroit. Unionized workers are getting the shaft, by and large not because companies are losing money, but because their projected profits are not where they want them to be. They are not making enough money. "Cost-reduction" and "profit-maximization" are the name of the new game.

Can you blame union leaders for suggesting that they fight on? When the vote came down (newsflash, almost every union is democratic and decisions like striking are made by popular vote), can you blame workers for refusing to have their livelihoods (and those of their families) by a third in wages alone, and by more than a third if benefits are included?

I don't. They stood up - at least for a little while - and said "your number crunching is playing with people's lives, and it is not alright." They got screwed, but they were getting screwed anyway.

"Melyssa K" Kennedy
11-19-2012, 07:53 PM
People are selling twinkies on e-bay for hundreds of dollars. Imagine how pissed the buyers will be if Hostess doesn't die.

Anyone who's willing to drop hundreds for a twinkie deserves to have it be a wasted venture, end of story.

MOTO13
11-20-2012, 06:42 AM
Oh, ok, so you have no idea how this is the union's fault, but it's the union's fault all the same. Seems legit.

That is not what I was referring to. Anyway...Hostess went bancrupt like 10 years ago and then they filed ch.11 last January. It was no secret they were in SERIOUS financial trouble. They offered the union a contract. Basically a final chance to possibly recover. Instead, the union went on strike. No mediation, no formal rejection etc, they just went on strike. Hostess was not secretive that if they did not accept the contract, they were liquidating the company. The judge did not understand why the union was even on strike prior to formally rejecting the contract or attempting mediation first.

Little_Miss_1565
11-20-2012, 09:23 AM
Someone is going to buy that shit, so the liquidation threat is pretty much bogus posturing. Grupo Bimbo or someone else like that is going to snap them up quick like a bunny. So basically the company just used liquidation as a threat because the workers making less than $20 per hours should take it on the chin while they get 300% raises. Total bullshit. Once again, you've bit onto nothing more than GOP posturing and bloviation like a dog with a bone. Workers get nothing, management makes insane amounts of money, yet this is somehow the union's fault.

Oh, and while trying to liquidate, Hostess asks permission to pay bonuses to their managers. So much for being out of money.

MOTO13
11-20-2012, 11:35 AM
The bonuses, if that is what they really are, may possibly be payments to allow certain members of management to stay on the assist in the transistion or liquidation. Possibly members of management had a contract for certain payments regardless of the outcome. They (Hostess) filed for bankruptcy before, maybe they had to make agreements with management in order to have them to stay. Fact is, I have no idea why or if they are paying for additional services or past agreements or simply raiding the company (doubtful). The union was offered a contract, they struck. Now they have to deal with that fallout.

Tiny Vessels
11-20-2012, 11:57 AM
The bonuses, if that is what they really are, may possibly be payments to allow certain members of management to stay on the assist in the transistion or liquidation. Possibly members of management had a contract for certain payments regardless of the outcome. They (Hostess) filed for bankruptcy before, maybe they had to make agreements with management in order to have them to stay. Fact is, I have no idea why or if they are paying for additional services or past agreements or simply raiding the company (doubtful). The union was offered a contract, they struck. Now they have to deal with that fallout.

I'm sorry but no company facing bankruptcy should give out bonuses. That's just bullshit. Like when the banks got bailled out the CEO'S got billion dollars bonuses for what driving the company down. Its pretty much the same thing as Hotess is doing. Killing the buisness but yet accepting fucking bonuses. Oh and hey MOTO when you attack me for posting this watch your words and be nice.

MOTO13
11-20-2012, 12:20 PM
lol...ok.

Like I said...people report all the time calling things what they may or may not be. The term bonus is misleading in bancruptcy cases. Unions have certain clauses in contracts, management may have the same in certain employment agreements and the company may be liable for and had funds already set aside for such instances. Calling it a "bonus" is simply a term. In some cases, management personnel may be specialized and move their family to work at a company. A contract with certain guarentees is in order when a company has had a dubious past financially. Like I said, just possibilities, I really do not know.

Little_Miss_1565
11-20-2012, 12:32 PM
lol...ok.

Like I said...people report all the time calling things what they may or may not be. The term bonus is misleading in bancruptcy cases. Unions have certain clauses in contracts, management may have the same in certain employment agreements and the company may be liable for and had funds already set aside for such instances. Calling it a "bonus" is simply a term. In some cases, management personnel may be specialized and move their family to work at a company. A contract with certain guarentees is in order when a company has had a dubious past financially. Like I said, just possibilities, I really do not know.

So you're sympathetic to upper management having to move a family to a new city for a job, but 100% unsympathetic to workers trying to support families under $20 per hour after taking a pay cut and giving back medical and retirement benefits but going on strike after being asked to give up more.

MOTO13
11-20-2012, 12:44 PM
How do you know what management had to give up? Also, did Hostess violate the terms of the union contract? Never heard they did. Fact is, the company was going broke apparently...they offered the union workers and new contract to stay employed and keep the company going...the union decided to walk out and strike. Now here we sit.

Tiny Vessels
11-20-2012, 01:11 PM
How do you know what management had to give up? Also, did Hostess violate the terms of the union contract? Never heard they did. Fact is, the company was going broke apparently...they offered the union workers and new contract to stay employed and keep the company going...the union decided to walk out and strike. Now here we sit.

They walked out because they didn't want their medical/pention/ hour much they make an hour cut to nothing.

MOTO13
11-20-2012, 01:19 PM
They walked out because they didn't want their medical/pention/ hour much they make an hour cut to nothing.

Really? No shit...nobody does. Facts are facts and like them or not, it was either that or be unemployed. Unlike the federal government, when a company is broke...it is broke. There is no magic continuing resolution or printing up cash. Get it? There is no magic fucking wand or beggin for money...congress won't bail your dumbass out and the tooth fairy has said fuck you I'm broke too for the last time. Either make drastic changes or close up. Sometimes it is that simple. You people think there is a happy ending to everything? Just because you don't want something to happen doesn't make it stop. You think people don't get hurt or make wrong decisions? Wake the hell up. This is the really real world and not some bullshit that Wallstreet protesting or making a big fuss like a 4 year old will change. This is a company that MUST be profitable or it is done.

Little_Miss_1565
11-20-2012, 01:28 PM
How do you know what management had to give up? Also, did Hostess violate the terms of the union contract? Never heard they did. Fact is, the company was going broke apparently...they offered the union workers and new contract to stay employed and keep the company going...the union decided to walk out and strike. Now here we sit.

....meanwhile the CEO got a 300% pay raise and middle management got a 100% pay raise. Complete bullshit that the responsibility for keeping the company going relies on the workers giving up everything.

Tiny Vessels
11-20-2012, 01:33 PM
Really? No shit...nobody does. Facts are facts and like them or not, it was either that or be unemployed. Unlike the federal government, when a company is broke...it is broke. There is no magic continuing resolution or printing up cash. Get it? There is no magic fucking wand or beggin for money...congress won't bail your dumbass out and the tooth fairy has said fuck you I'm broke too for the last time. Either make drastic changes or close up. Sometimes it is that simple. You people think there is a happy ending to everything? Just because you don't want something to happen doesn't make it stop. You think people don't get hurt or make wrong decisions? Wake the hell up. This is the really real world and not some bullshit that Wallstreet protesting or making a big fuss like a 4 year old will change. This is a company that MUST be profitable or it is done.

I'm sorry the tooth fairy said fuck off and I'm too broke for you. That must of really hurt your feelings. The tooth fairy never said that to me ever... A little humor to get started with.

I totally know that if you don't want something to happen it doesn't make it stop. I know that I get that. Everybody makes mistakes and someone always gets hurt from it. But I believe there is a right and wrong way to go about things.Sometimes there can't be ahappy ending to things but you can try damn hard to make it somewhat fair.

Things could have been a little better.