PDA

View Full Version : Lousy hippies fight for the right to walk around nude



bighead384
11-18-2012, 07:02 PM
Lawmakers in San Fransisco are proposing a ban on nudity. Honestly, I didn't even know it was legal anywhere in the US. I just can't sympathize with these people. If there were a good reason to be nude, I could see the point. But seriously...why?
http://l2.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/neulafVaqHYiPUcL.xMS4w--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Y2g9MzQ1Njtjcj0xO2N3PTUxODQ7ZHg9MD tkeT0wO2ZpPXVsY3JvcDtoPTQyMDtxPTg1O3c9NjMw/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/ap_webfeeds/2e0b2be781374320210f6a70670070a9.jpg


Stripped down to his sunglasses and hiking boots, McCray Winpsett, 37, said he understands the disgust of residents who would prefer not to see the body modifications and sex enhancement devices sported by some of the Castro nudists. But he thinks Wiener's prohibition goes too far in undermining a tradition "that keeps San Francisco weird."

"A few lewd exhibitionists are really ruining it for the rest of us," he said. "It's my time to come out now to present myself in a light and show what true nudity is all about so people can separate the difference between what a nudist is and an exhibitionist is."

Article: http://news.yahoo.com/public-nudity-ban-eyed-fed-san-francisco-191355793.html

Jebus
11-18-2012, 07:27 PM
Waste up nudity should be legal for both sexes. I'm not too crazy about genitalia being flaunted around publicly in front of kids though.

"Melyssa K" Kennedy
11-18-2012, 08:35 PM
Isn't it legal for women to go topless in New York?

Llamas
11-19-2012, 05:03 AM
Our culture isn't ready for nudity. Americans still very much see nudity as tied to sex, and unfortunately there are total creeps out there who would take advantage of such a situation. Nudity for now should remain at home and at nudist camps.

I do understand why nudists are making this push, though, and I sympathize with their attitude toward clothes. I see their point. I just don't think the majority could handle it and others would definitely use it badly.

bighead384
11-19-2012, 07:28 AM
I'm not too crazy about genitalia being flaunted around publicly in front of kids though.
Just curious, what in particular don't you like about this?

I think it would be nasty to have people's junk rubbing all over everything. Like, what if you didn't wipe properly and then sat down on a bus seat?

Jebus
11-19-2012, 09:00 AM
Just curious, what in particular don't you like about this?
What llamas said about the creeps.

Blitz!
11-19-2012, 10:30 AM
Leaves nothing to the imagination

jacknife737
11-19-2012, 11:08 AM
If i had my way, every man caught in public without a three piece suit would face a five year prison sentence.

"Melyssa K" Kennedy
11-20-2012, 03:17 AM
Just think about it. If women walked around all day for years without a bra, in 10 years, they'd be down to their hips. Most guys don't care for that look. They don't want to take a romantic stroll with their honey and get titty-slapped in the face.

MOTO13
11-20-2012, 07:00 AM
I am all for seeing naked women, but just strolling around all the time naked...IDK. Kind of would lose all the mystery. I could not even imagine the pressure in my life if I walked around naked all the time. That, and I mean, come on, the pavement would scrape the hell out of johnson.

Tiny Vessels
11-20-2012, 09:21 AM
If people really did get the right to walk around naked, you would see alot of people naked that you would never ever wanna see. That would be disturbing.

Godxilla
11-20-2012, 04:43 PM
Wow this thread was fun to read.

I say that it would be harmful to kids, good for pervs, and bad for those who don't like viewing some old guy's balls as he waddles down the street. In other words, socialists would LOVE it!

Rooster
11-20-2012, 11:21 PM
Wow this thread was fun to read.

I say that it would be harmful to kids, good for pervs, and bad for those who don't like viewing some old guy's balls as he waddles down the street. In other words, socialists would LOVE it!

Yes, because there's nothing that socialists love more than taking a nice look at some ancient cojones gleaming in the dawn.



Edit: Why of all things (breasts, vaginas, buttocks,...) do you always think about parts of male genitalia first (remember debate about Randy's dong)? Oooh I get it, you naughty boy you :rolleyes:

Llamas
11-21-2012, 03:49 AM
Wow this thread was fun to read.

I say that it would be harmful to kids, good for pervs, and bad for those who don't like viewing some old guy's balls as he waddles down the street. In other words, socialists would LOVE it!

I'm kind of a socialist, and I would prefer to never, ever see an old guy's balls in my life, thankyouverymuch. :)

Dulce
11-21-2012, 04:08 AM
Isn't it legal for women to go topless in New York?

Yes, it is.

How about PeTA?

Wear animal fur and get paint/spray on you or go completely naked to support the cause?

The gays in San Fran will they all get banned for public display like isn't that their illegal/legal rights to be carefree to express themselves but On the other light not cool for the eyes of a parent's child though.

Godxilla
11-21-2012, 07:42 AM
Yes, because there's nothing that socialists love more than taking a nice look at some ancient cojones gleaming in the dawn.



Edit: Why of all things (breasts, vaginas, buttocks,...) do you always think about parts of male genitalia first (remember debate about Randy's dong)? Oooh I get it, you naughty boy you :rolleyes:
Because I don't have an issue with girls going nude...
Okay, maybe I do.
But believe, I've got an issue with seeing Randy's (or anyone's) dong.

I'm kind of a socialist, and I would prefer to never, ever see an old guy's balls in my life, thankyouverymuch. :)

I agree. Not all socialists are created equal, eh?

"Melyssa K" Kennedy
11-21-2012, 12:39 PM
Yes, it is.

There are also nude beaches in Florida. I just hope none of them are in close proximity to any old folks homes.

WebDudette
11-21-2012, 02:54 PM
Just think about it. If women walked around all day for years without a bra, in 10 years, they'd be down to their hips. Most guys don't care for that look. They don't want to take a romantic stroll with their honey and get titty-slapped in the face.

I've never seen any scientific evidence showing that bras prevent breasts from sagging. It could very well be true, if you have some data or evidence I'd like to see it, but last I heard there wasn't much of a connection.

llamas, I don't necessarily think the country is ready for full on minority, but isn't this the step you would make to get the country to that point. Likewise, just because some people aren't ready or are uncomfortable with something like this is not necessarily a good reason to forbid or fight it.

I don't really have an opinion on public nudity, if it's something that comes to pass, what ev's. I don't particularly want to see loads of people naked, but it's not going to devastate me or anything.

"Melyssa K" Kennedy
11-21-2012, 03:52 PM
I've never seen any scientific evidence showing that bras prevent breasts from sagging. It could very well be true, if you have some data or evidence I'd like to see it, but last I heard there wasn't much of a connection.

I have no scientific evidence as far as experiments and concrete data, but I have common sense and an understanding of physics. Have you ever seen the topless tribes in Africa? It's part of their culture that women don't wear bras or clothing on their upper bodies. The correlation between age and breast sagging compared to women who wear bras is staggering. I don't go out of my way to look, but I'm hyperobservant, so I notice. As people get older, skin loses elasticity and gravity takes its toll on the face, this we all know. Breasts are heavy (except the small ones,) so when gravity acts on a heavy object whose "container" (skin) loses elasticity, it's expected for sag to occur. And the heavier they are, the more they sag.

bornlie
11-21-2012, 03:52 PM
I have no scientific evidence as far as experiments and concrete data, but I have common sense and an understanding of physics. Have you ever seen the topless tribes in Africa? It's part of their culture that women don't wear bras or clothing on their upper bodies. The correlation between age and breast sagging compared to women who wear bras is staggering. I don't go out of my way to look, but I'm hyperobservant, so I notice. As people get older, skin loses elasticity and gravity takes its toll on the face, this we all know. Breasts are heavy (except the small ones,) so when gravity acts on a heavy object whose "container" (skin) loses elasticity, it's expected for sag to occur. And the heavier they are, the more they sag.

What she said ^

WebDudette
11-21-2012, 04:13 PM
Just looked into it, experts say that bras do not prevent or even slow breast ptosis. So, I'm gonna go with them on this one.

Llamas
11-21-2012, 05:17 PM
Just think about it. If women walked around all day for years without a bra, in 10 years, they'd be down to their hips. Most guys don't care for that look. They don't want to take a romantic stroll with their honey and get titty-slapped in the face.


I have no scientific evidence as far as experiments and concrete data, but I have common sense and an understanding of physics. Have you ever seen the topless tribes in Africa? It's part of their culture that women don't wear bras or clothing on their upper bodies. The correlation between age and breast sagging compared to women who wear bras is staggering. I don't go out of my way to look, but I'm hyperobservant, so I notice. As people get older, skin loses elasticity and gravity takes its toll on the face, this we all know. Breasts are heavy (except the small ones,) so when gravity acts on a heavy object whose "container" (skin) loses elasticity, it's expected for sag to occur. And the heavier they are, the more they sag.

Man, this is dumb. I thought you were supposedly all into science and stuff, and yet here you just use "observation" and ignore science completely. Yep, some African women who don't wear bras have saggy breasts in old age. And exactly how many breasts have you seen of women who've worn bras all their lives? Breasts that are gonna sag a lot (large breasts, particularly on big women) are gonna sag whether or not they wear bras. Small breasts aren't really gonna sag regardless of bra usage. Bras were invented as a replacement for corsets; their purpose is to make women's breasts look nicer. It also happens that they're more comfortable for women with large breasts. For me, they're uncomfortable and do not actually offer support. The only reason I wear bras is for esthetics. If I'm wearing a hoodie or something, no bra. Fuck that.

I'd be more inclined to believe that a sports bra makes a difference, but there's not even any scientific proof on that, either.

WebDudette
11-21-2012, 05:39 PM
Not to mention the vastly different genetic makeup, lifelong diets, and the fact that those women likely breastfeed way more children than the average first world American.

For some more anecdotal and observational evidence, I have seen lots of young tribal women with perfectly perky breasts and young American women with 'saggy' breasts. Also, I found a small Japanese study that suggests wearing bras may actually increase sagging, because they allow the ligaments in the breasts to atrophy. Furthermore, all bra companies are very particular about not mentioning sagging.

"Melyssa K" Kennedy
11-21-2012, 06:20 PM
Well, whatever. I don't see how you think my whole rant about skin elasticity was unscientific. As a woman with a small frame and large breasts, I'm not going without a bra. I'll tell you, running and jumping with these things un-bra'd is painful. I find it very uncomfortable to not wear a bra, so I'm going with bra actually giving support.

bornlie
11-21-2012, 06:21 PM
Well, whatever. I don't see how you think my whole rant about skin elasticity was unscientific. As a woman with a small frame and large breasts, I'm not going without a bra. I'll tell you, running and jumping with these things un-bra'd is painful. I find it very uncomfortable to not wear a bra, so I'm going with bra actually giving support.

llama is a dude so they have small manboobs. They would not know about large breasts.

WebDudette
11-21-2012, 06:46 PM
Well, whatever. I don't see how you think my whole rant about skin elasticity was unscientific. As a woman with a small frame and large breasts, I'm not going without a bra. I'll tell you, running and jumping with these things un-bra'd is painful. I find it very uncomfortable to not wear a bra, so I'm going with bra actually giving support.

Just because something appears well reasoned or logical does not mean it is scientific or true. I'm not trying to attack you, I'm just disagreeing with you, based on legitimate scientific evaluation, there is no evidence that bras prevent sagging, but there is some evidence that suggests the opposite. As for you wearing a bra, that's great. There are plenty of good and valid reasons to wear a bra or prefer wearing a bra to not wearing one. I find it very uncomfortable to not wear boxer briefs, they give my junk support, but I do not think they are actively preventing my balls from getting saggier.

born, I've never seen you actually contribute, you just blindly 'defend' Melyssa without any reasoning or argument and needlessly call people names. What's the deal man? Are you trying to impress her or something? Melyssa, do you find his pathetic pandering and childish name calling impressive and attractive? llamas is a woman, btw.

"Melyssa K" Kennedy
11-21-2012, 06:48 PM
Look what I found. I never said there were not other contributing factors to breast-sagging, I said that bras will reduce sagging by reducing the amount of pull on the skin, specifically in large-breasted women, until they have kids. Compare this to those women who wear gigantic, heavy earrings all the time. Their earlobes sag down, even when they are not wearing earrings. Skin is not immune to the effects of gravity, and neither are titties. By the way, Wikipedia isn't an acceptable source.
Disclaimer: this is a video of doctors describing real breast anatomy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YatxdpCAUr0

bornlie
11-21-2012, 06:49 PM
Look what I found. I never said there were not other contributing factors to breast-sagging, I said that bras will reduce sagging by reducing the amount of pull on the skin, specifically in large-breasted women, until they have kids. Compare this to those women who wear gigantic, heavy earrings all the time. Their earlobes sag down, even when they are not wearing earrings. Skin is not immune to the effects of gravity, and neither are titties. By the way, Wikipedia isn't an acceptable source.
Disclaimer: this is a video of doctors describing real breast anatomy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YatxdpCAUr0

^ she linked a video to a boobyologist. Watch and pay attention you might learn something.

WebDudette
11-21-2012, 07:21 PM
Look what I found. I never said there were not other contributing factors to breast-sagging, I said that bras wil reduce sagging by reducing the amount of pull on the skin, specifically in large-breasted women, until they have kids. Compare this to those women who wear gigantic, heavy earrings all the time. Their earlobes sag down, even when they are not wearing earrings. Skin is not immune to the effects of gravity, and neither are titties. By the way, Wikipedia isn't an acceptable source.
Disclaimer: this is a video of doctors describing real breast anatomy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YatxdpCAUr0

I agree that Wikipedia information should not be taken at face value, but there is nothing wrong with starting your research there. Most wikipedia pages are sourced, generally with acceptable sources. Still, I think it's funny that you'd call Wikipedia out, while posting a youtube video of what appears to be a day time talk show as your source. Unfortunately, I cannot view the video right now because I am at work. I'll be sure to check it out when I get home, I'll link to my sources as well. I do not believe anyone claimed that you claimed bras and only bras mattered.

For the record, I'm a man and have no serious opinions about this subject. All research I've done on it has been done in about fifteen minutes and on my phone. I just don't think 'because I said so' is an acceptable response to 'do you have any evidence to support that'.

There you are again, bornlie. With literally nothing to add, you're quite predictable.

bornlie
11-21-2012, 07:42 PM
I agree that Wikipedia information should not be taken at face value, but there is nothing wrong with starting your research there. Most wikipedia pages are sourced, generally with acceptable sources. Still, I think it's funny that you'd call Wikipedia out, while posting a youtube video of what appears to be a day time talk show as your source. Unfortunately, I cannot view the video right now because I am at work. I'll be sure to check it out when I get home, I'll link to my sources as well. I do not believe anyone claimed that you claimed bras and only bras mattered.

For the record, I'm a man and have no serious opinions about this subject. All research I've done on it has been done in about fifteen minutes and on my phone. I just don't think 'because I said so' is an acceptable response to 'do you have any evidence to support that'.

There you are again, bornlie. With literally nothing to add, you're quite predictable.


Yes I am, but at least I am smart enough not to pick an argument with an intelligent woman about bras(unless of course you wear one). I actually thought you were a girl before you started talking about your balls sagging.

"Melyssa K" Kennedy
11-21-2012, 07:45 PM
I feel I must mention that my brain is an encyclopedia of most everything about science that I've learned. I'm not bragging, it's just how my brain works. So I may know some things that I learned from reputable sources and I just forget what those sources are because it's been sitting in my brain, collecting dust. Also, I'm always a logical and critical thinker (to a fault and my dismay,) I just can't remember exactly where I learned everything I know. People sometimes confuse this for my opinion. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

WebDudette
11-21-2012, 07:49 PM
Yes I am, but at least I am smart enough not to pick an argument with an intelligent woman about bras(unless of course you wear one). I actually thought you were a guy before you started talking about your balls sagging.

That's just silly. I know plenty of intelligent people who drive cars, but I don't expect them to have expert opinions on automobiles because they're not mechanics. I do not trust a single persons subjective opinion over the findings of scientific data and testing done by experts, no matter who the person is or how intelligent they may be.

"Melyssa K" Kennedy
11-21-2012, 07:53 PM
That's just silly. I know plenty of intelligent people who drive cars, but I don't expect them to have expert opinions on automobiles because they're not mechanics. I do not trust a single persons subjective opinion over the findings of scientific data and testing done by experts, no matter who the person is or how intelligent they may be.

It's funny that you said that after the content in my last post.
Also, I know many people in my college who drive cars and know a LOT about them, things experts know, and they are not mechanics. Take my chemistry lab partner, for example.
I'm majoring in biology and I've been studying astronomy since I was 7. You could not imagine how much I know about the field of astronomy. Just because I do not have a college degree saying I studied this, you would not believe something I said about it if I didn't cite my source? Like, do you think I'm bull-shitting you when I tell you that frogs close their eyes and sink them into their heads to push their food down their throat because they can not swallow?

bornlie
11-21-2012, 08:27 PM
It's funny that you said that after the content in my last post.
Also, I know many people in my college who drive cars and know a LOT about them, things experts know, and they are not mechanics. Take my chemistry lab partner, for example.
I'm majoring in biology and I've been studying astronomy since I was 7. You could not imagine how much I know about the field of astronomy. Just because I do not have a college degree saying I studied this, you would not believe something I said about it if I didn't cite my source? Like, do you think I'm bull-shitting you when I tell you that frogs close their eyes and sink them into their heads to push their food down their throat because they can not swallow?

watch it, now he is going to use wikipedia to look up frogs on his phone.

WebDudette
11-21-2012, 09:21 PM
I want to make sure we're on the same page here. So what you're suggesting is that I should take the word of random internet strangers because they claim to know what they're talking about, and better yet, they have anecdotal evidence and everyone knows how credible and useful that is! Furthermore, I should take there word over evidence and data, they haven't actively researched it, but hey, they've been wearing a bra since grade school! Their self-proclaimed encyclopedic brain is way more reliable than a reliably sourced Wikipedia article. Also, there is something inherently wrong with politely asking for evidence and if I am asked for evidence, I should get defensive and provide even more subjective and anecdotal evidence.

I never even said you were wrong, but if I've seen scientific evidence that contradicts what you're saying and all you're going to give me is subjective opinions and your observational evidence, why should I listen to what you have to say?

As for the frog thing, I didn't know that, that's interesting. Can you show me a study that explains how it works or how the process was discovered? (I actually looked it up already, because I truly did find it interesting. Imagine I hadn't though, and you just came back and said 'I don't actually have any evidence or an explanation, but I used to have a frog and I've seen a couple on tv, I just know that's how it works'.)

WebDudette
11-21-2012, 09:34 PM
Unlike full nudity, which I don't really have an opinion on right now, I have no problem with waist up nudity for both sexes. Assuming bras do prevent sagging, which they very well might, it's really a non-issue. If a woman chooses nudity over non-sagging breasts, that's her decision to make. Just as plenty of women wear clothes without bras, some women don't shave, and others don't wear makeup. Those are all deal breakers for some men, but who cares? There may be some legitimate reasons to ban waist up public nudity, but that's not one of them.

"Melyssa K" Kennedy
11-21-2012, 09:42 PM
No, I never said you have to take my word for it. I'm saying you shouldn't discredit me ONLY because I'm not an expert and didn't give you scientific proof. Oh, wait, I did. That video is not a talk show like you think. It's a daytime show where actual, real-life doctors - you know, experts - discuss real health issues. This is the "boobyologist" in the video. Do you doubt her credibility? http://www.breastpreservationfoundation.org/about/kristi-funk/
You are not a tittyologist, so what credibility do you have? All you are saying is that you believe what wikipedia is telling you. How does that make YOU credible?
No, I don't have scientific data for you about the frogs because I am not interested in having an intellectual debate about how frogs consume their food, or the causes and effects of drooping tatas with someone who doesn't even have them.

bornlie
11-21-2012, 09:54 PM
I want to make sure we're on the same page here. So what you're suggesting is that I should take the word of random internet strangers because they claim to know what they're talking about, and better yet, they have anecdotal evidence and everyone knows how credible and useful that is! Furthermore, I should take there word over evidence and data, they haven't actively researched it, but hey, they've been wearing a bra since grade school! Their self-proclaimed encyclopedic brain is way more reliable than a reliably sourced Wikipedia article. Also, there is something inherently wrong with politely asking for evidence and if I am asked for evidence, I should get defensive and provide even more subjective and anecdotal evidence.

I never even said you were wrong, but if I've seen scientific evidence that contradicts what you're saying and all you're going to give me is subjective opinions and your observational evidence, why should I listen to what you have to say?

As for the frog thing, I didn't know that, that's interesting. Can you show me a study that explains how it works or how the process was discovered? (I actually looked it up already, because I truly did find it interesting. Imagine I hadn't though, and you just came back and said 'I don't actually have any evidence or an explanation, but I used to have a frog and I've seen a couple on tv, I just know that's how it works'.)

You fail to see the point. You did not believe Melyssa, an individual who has a lot more credibility than yourself on the subject. So she humored you and gave you evidence backed by expert testimony via a link. I assume you did not bother watching the doctor on that link since you came and again decided to attack the basis for Melyssa's argument, as well as her evidence. Melyssa's evidence is solid and would withstand any logical and critical analysis. If Melyssa were an attorney presenting evidence in a court of law, her evidence would hold up and be used on the grounds for a conviction. Do not let your ego and insecurities prevent you from admitting that your basis for disagreement is based on a fallacy. I understand that you have begun developing breasts and are afraid they will soon be sagging. You do not want to wear a bra. I get this, but what I do not get is that why you refuse to acknowledge the superiority of a woman. Did mommy not let you play with your friends? Did mommy embarrass you at school? Are you holding some type of grudge? Did you wife divorce you and take your Offspring CD collection? Stop living in your own dream world and face the facts. You were preaching about fact and validity but it is not very logical to presume an argument is not valid simply because Melyssa did not give you the number of sagging boobs in America. Wake up and smell the estrogen. Melyssa won.

"Melyssa K" Kennedy
11-21-2012, 10:04 PM
You were preaching about fact and validity but it is not very logical to presume an argument is not valid simply because Melyssa did not give you the number of sagging boobs in America.

Is there were a scientific survey about the number of sagging hooters in America and a correlation between that number and the number of women who wear bras and those who don't? Geez, I guess I'll have to go out and ask women if their melons sag and how often they wear a bra and what brand it is, what type of bras, whether it's padded or has an underwire. I may as well ask the color and if there's lace.

But I think we've been off topic enough.

WebDudette
11-21-2012, 10:20 PM
You're missing my point entirely. I recognized that you posted some evidence, but as I stated I have not been able to watch it yet. I also stated that I have no serious opinion on the effects of a bra on ptosis, just that the research I have seen says that bras have no effect and that I was curious to see an opposing study. I didn't get my info from Wiki, so I am unsure why you keep insisting I did. I wasn't actually asking for info about frogs, it was an example. I spend a lot of time researching homophobia, racism, misogyny, and other inequalities, but I am a straight, white middle class male, none of those things apply to me. Would you say I shouldn't talk about them or be curious?

tl;dr: if someone politely asks for evidence to back your claim say 'I'm sorry, I don't have any evidence, this is just my opinion', 'Yes, I have a source, but I don't have time/don't care to find it', or 'Here is some evidence to back my claim:' It's not a personal attack on your credibility, honesty, or intelligence when someone asks for a source.

"Melyssa K" Kennedy
11-21-2012, 10:51 PM
I didn't get my info from Wiki, so I am unsure why you keep insisting I did. I wasn't actually asking for info about frogs, it was an example.


I am not insisting you used wiki, but I was under the impression that you did. There's a difference there. When I first mentioned it, you didn't deny using wiki and you actually defended it, stating why it can be credible. Given those events, anybody would have thought you used it.


"As for the frog thing, I didn't know that, that's interesting. Can you show me a study that explains how it works or how the process was discovered? (I actually looked it up already, because I truly did find it interesting." That sounded like you wanted to discus it. You can't fault me for that.

By the way, when you called my encyclopedic brain self-proclaimed, it's also friend-supported, professor-approved.

WebDudette
11-21-2012, 11:48 PM
I am not insisting you used wiki, but I was under the impression that you did. There's a difference there. When I first mentioned it, you didn't deny using wiki and you actually defended it, stating why it can be credible. Given those events, anybody would have thought you used it.

Wikiepedia has all relevant sources at the bottom of the page, it's not nearly as terrible as a lot of people seem to think. You're right though, I didn't deny it, and in fact found one study through the wiki article on ptosis, but that in no way discredits the source. I wouldn't use wikipedia on an academic paper, but there's nothing with finding sources through it.


"As for the frog thing, I didn't know that, that's interesting. Can you show me a study that explains how it works or how the process was discovered? (I actually looked it up already, because I truly did find it interesting." That sounded like you wanted to discus it. You can't fault me for that.

That wasn't all I said though, I thought I had made it apparent that I was making a connection between the two situations.


As for the frog thing, I didn't know that, that's interesting. Can you show me a study that explains how it works or how the process was discovered? (I actually looked it up already, because I truly did find it interesting. Imagine I hadn't though, and you just came back and said 'I don't actually have any evidence or an explanation, but I used to have a frog and I've seen a couple on tv, I just know that's how it works'.)

Sources:

Eleven adult female subjects aged 22-39 years wore a certain brassière for 3 months while anthropometry and moiré fringe photographs on the anterior trunk were taken regularly once a week. After the 3 months, the brassière was not worn for another 3 months. Then the measurements and photogrammetry were repeated for comparison using superimposed moiré configurations. The results are summarized as follows. Regardless of slim or obese trunk, subjects with pendent breasts showed the highest degree of breast form "correction" from wearing the brassière. In all subjects, after 3 months of brassière constraint, the underbust circumference was smaller but the chest circumference became enlarged, the distance between the right and left nipples became wider, and the breasts tended to hang down. This change was more marked in obese subjects with pendent breasts. And when this type of subject wore a "well-fitted" brassière for a long time, her breast form became developed; that is, her breasts hung down more. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2092072)


Breast ptosis is one of the most common conditions treated by plastic surgeons, but the causes are not clearly defined. A review was conducted of 132 consecutive patients presenting for breast augmentation or mastopexy. Information was obtained by chart review and telephone interview. Standardized photographs were examined to determine degree of ptosis by the Regnault classification. Of patients who had at least one pregnancy, 85% reported adverse changes in breast shape following pregnancy, 35% reported a reduction in breast size, and 30% reported an increase in size. Upon logistic regression, age, history of significant (>50 lbs) weight loss, higher body mass index, larger bra cup size, number of pregnancies, and smoking history were found to be significant risk factors for breast ptosis (P < 0.05). History of breast-feeding, weight gain during pregnancy, and lack of participation in regular upper body exercise were not found to be significant risk factors for ptosis. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20354434)


Women have nothing to fear from increased sagging in their breasts if they ditch their bra - as gravity will still get them in the end. ''Bras don't prevent breasts from sagging,'' said Professor Mansell. ''With regard to stretching of the breast ligaments and drooping in later life, that occurs very regularly anyway, and that's a function of the weight, often of heavy breasts, and these women are wearing bras and it doesn't prevent it.''

Even the chief executive of the bra manufacturers, Playtex, John Dixey, agrees. ''We have no medical evidence that wearing a bra could prevent sagging, because the breast itself is not muscle so keeping it toned up is an impossibility. What it can do, particularly for larger-breasted women, is provide comfort and support.'' But clearly, as the study showed, not comfort for everyone. (http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/dont-burn-your-bra-just-yet-622008.html)


Does Wearing a Bra Prevent Sagging Breasts?

There's little evidence that wearing a bra delays or prevents saggy breasts. In fact, some experts believe that immobilizing the breasts in a bra causes Cooper's ligaments to atrophy - so they're less capable of firmly supporting the breasts.

One small Japanese study that followed young women who wore a bra or went braless for three months found at the end of the study that the women who wore a bra had breasts that hung down slightly more. Although this is hardly a respectable scientific study, it does call into question the benefits of wearing a bra to prevent saggy breasts. Even bra manufacturers admit that the function of a bra is to change the appearance of the breasts while the bra is being worn.

Wearing a Sports Bra to Prevent Saggy Breasts

There is one situation where wearing a bra might be helpful for preventing breast sagging. Women who run, or do high-impact exercise and have large breasts, put considerable stress on Cooper's ligaments -which could cause them to stretch. Wearing a sports bra may prevent this. Plus, it makes exercise more comfortable. (http://voices.yahoo.com/does-wearing-bra-prevent-saggy-breasts-6935742.html)

I am home now and I was able to watch the video and get these links up. It looks like there is no real conclusion or agreement, so take from this what you will. At this point in time, I will continue to side with these particular studies as they seem more valid to me than one doctor on tv, if you find more evidence supporting your claim, let me know. In the process of searching for this stuff, I found out that it seems unanimous that brestfeeding has no effect on whether or not breasts sag, I find that interesting, I would have thought it made a difference.

Llamas
11-22-2012, 04:45 AM
It's tough for me to take someone's word without sources and evidence when they so frequently misunderstand other people (it was obvious that pilz was making an analogy with the frog thing... very surprising you thought he actually wanted to discuss it here...) and use such weak grammar. I don't expect everyone to understand everyone else all the time and use perfect grammar; I'm just saying that they're not the greatest signs that I should just believe everything someone says without sources and proof.

I am a woman and I wear bras, so you guys can throw this whole, "You're not a woman and don't wear bras, so you can't talk about this!" crap out the window. Reminds me of when I lived in CZ and Czechs constantly told me I couldn't have an opinion on racism against the Gypsies there because I'm not Czech myself and "could never understand". So dumb. Of course a man can discuss the biological and physical causes of ptosis. He's not claiming to be an expert in any way.

One doctor claiming that bras prevent sagging is not enough to counter all the doctors and scientists who state there is no evidence for this, sorry. Doctors and scientists never agree unanimously on things, but I tend to go with the majority of them or at least with someone who's been proven right many times in the past. Why should I just believe that one woman and not all the others?

Also, I'm guessing that many people retain a lot of information from sources they don't remember - at least it happens to me all the time. When I know some information but don't recall the source, I make that very clear. I state the information, and then state that I don't remember where I got it from, so until I can back it up with actual sources, it should be taken with a grain of salt. I suggest you do the same.

Harleyquiiinn
11-22-2012, 05:32 AM
I am a woman and I wear bras, so you guys can throw this whole, "You're not a woman and don't wear bras, so you can't talk about this!" crap out the window. Reminds me of when I lived in CZ and Czechs constantly told me I couldn't have an opinion on racism against the Gypsies there because I'm not Czech myself and "could never understand". So dumb. Of course a man can discuss the biological and physical causes of ptosis. He's not claiming to be an expert in any way.



Oh about that... these days, during week ends, I'm doing this thing where I assist people who just got arrested and are interrogated by cops.

2 weeks ago, it was a ten year old boy (who looked more like 8...) arrested for trying to steal some money at an ATM with his buddies or cousins or brothers... we never could figure this out.
Anyway, the kid was a Gypsy from Romania. He couldn't speak french so they made a romanian interpret come.

Man, that guy was an asshole. Saying stuff like "why do you even ask ? of course it's him, he never went to school, he can't read and can't even speak correctly". All of what he said was true, and I am not that naive either. But it is just the way he said it. So condenscending. And I was really schocked how he refused to acknowledge he was just a small boy.

Even the cops were freaked out by how young and tiny he were. I told him "you know, yes he probably did it, and sure, he is not an angel. But come on, he's a kid and he certainly doesn't have a say in this. Can't you see that ?"

He made a weird disgusted sound and we left it there.

Llamas
11-22-2012, 06:22 AM
Oh about that... these days, during week ends, I'm doing this thing where I assist people who just got arrested and are interrogated by cops.

2 weeks ago, it was a ten year old boy (who looked more like 8...) arrested for trying to steal some money at an ATM with his buddies or cousins or brothers... we never could figure this out.
Anyway, the kid was a Gypsy from Romania. He couldn't speak french so they made a romanian interpret come.

Man, that guy was an asshole. Saying stuff like "why do you even ask ? of course it's him, he never went to school, he can't read and can't even speak correctly". All of what he said was true, and I am not that naive either. But it is just the way he said it. So condenscending. And I was really schocked how he refused to acknowledge he was just a small boy.

Even the cops were freaked out by how young and tiny he were. I told him "you know, yes he probably did it, and sure, he is not an angel. But come on, he's a kid and he certainly doesn't have a say in this. Can't you see that ?"

He made a weird disgusted sound and we left it there.


Wow, that poor kid... it's not like he chose to not get a good education, like he decided he didn't want to learn to read... and a freaking child, at that! That's so sad... instead of trying to help him and wanting to fix things, they blame and point fingers and shame him.

_Lost_
11-22-2012, 09:25 AM
Reminds me of a racism thread, where JohnnyNemesis said something about being sick of white people talking about racism like they know what it feels like... or something.

Melyssa, WebDudette was not attacking you in any way. It could have been a nice little discussion about boob saggage and whether or not bras affected it, but you got so caught up in him 'doubting' you. Honestly, "I've seen pictures" really is no way to draw a conclusion and that is how you made it sound like you came to your conclusion. If you had said "I read this article one time" or something similar, it would've gotten a different response. But what really happened here was you presented what you thought was clear evidence and someone responded with contradicting information, and you took that to mean he was attacking you with wikipedia.

And his point is right. Wikipedia can be a useful place to start. Well written articles often provide you with a plethora of reliable sources that you can research further.

"Melyssa K" Kennedy
11-22-2012, 02:10 PM
"It's tough for me to take someone's word without sources and evidence when they so frequently misunderstand other people (it was obvious that pilz was making an analogy with the frog thing... very surprising you thought he actually wanted to discuss it here...) and use such weak grammar."
- It's easy to misunderstand people when communicating through text. There are no vocal tones or pauses to read, no facial expressions to examine, no hand gestures to observe. I use weak grammar? What constitutes weak grammar, anyway?

I am a woman and I wear bras, so you guys can throw this whole, "You're not a woman and don't wear bras, so you can't talk about this!"
- I never said that. I have no idea why you think I did.

"One doctor claiming that bras prevent sagging is not enough to counter all the doctors and scientists who state there is no evidence for this, sorry."
- I'm not going to spend time researching this topic. I have chemistry labs to write and calculus to study. Those are more important than researching a topic that I'm not using for academic purposes.

Paint_It_Black
11-22-2012, 07:32 PM
I'm pretty sure that nudity itself is not illegal in most US states and can in fact be a protected right, counting somehow as free speech/expression I believe. Lewd conduct and other behavior considered antisocial is what technically violates the law. Though in practice this distinction seems to matter little unless you have a large group of nudists staging some kind of planned event. I witnessed a massive nude bike ride in Oregon recently that was fascinating. Thousands of people participated. While I don't really understand why people want to do it I have no problem with it and can certainly see the appeal in more appropriate locations, such as beaches. Nudity is entirely natural and the seemingly ever-present link between nudity and sex is purely cultural. Having said that, sex is also entirely natural and the seemingly ever-present stigma placed on sexual conduct is also purely cultural and unnecessary. I have no problem with seeing people naked and have no problem with watching people engaged in sexual activity. Nudity does seem impractical in an urban setting though, and if there is a legitimate sexual aspect to the nudity it is of course prudent to keep this activity away from children. I just try to base my opinions on pragmatism rather than abstract concepts of morality imposed on me.