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Izie
03-03-2005, 02:10 PM
Article taken from the BBC NEWS, might not be exactly political, but it sure as hell doesn't belong in General Chat.

Dozens of men and women accused of the rape and abuse of children have gone on trial in one of the biggest court cases in France's legal history.

The trial, which involves 66 defendants and is expected to last four months, is taking place in a specially built hall in the town of Angers, western France.

Some 60 lawyers are taking part and the prosecution case runs to 430 pages, AFP news agency reports.

There are 45 alleged child victims whose ages range from 12 to six months.

France has been horrified by the case, wondering how such widespread abuse could have gone on for so long unnoticed by social workers or the police, says the BBC's Caroline Wyatt in Paris.

Children 'bartered'

Of the 66 defendants, 39 face charges of raping children under 15 and of pimping. A total of 39 men and 27 women are going on trial.

The crimes could incur jail terms of up to 30 years.

In Thursday's hearing, the accused were asked to stand in turn and give their age, profession and home address.

The court is also expected to rule on a request for the proceedings to be heard behind closed doors.

The victims are not expected to appear in court - their testimony has been videotaped.

The evidence being presented in court suggests a cycle of abuse down the generations, our correspondent says.

The couple at the centre of the trial were themselves both sexually abused as children.

They in turn allegedly raped and abused their own children, and allowed family members, neighbours and friends to do the same.

Almost all the defendants come from deeply deprived backgrounds; few have jobs or training. Some are illiterate and almost all lived in the same rundown council estate on welfare benefits.

The prosecution says most crimes were perpetrated in the flat of a former convicted sex offender and in sheds on garden allotments.

"Parents of one kid sold her for a new car tyre," said lawyer Philippe Cosnard, quoted by the AFP news agency. Other children were allegedly bartered for small sums of money, food or cigarettes.

A girl of 10 was allegedly raped by more than 30 adults.

Outreau case

The alleged crimes reportedly came to light when investigators monitored the activities of another convicted sex offender released in 1999. The two men are said to have run the paedophile ring.

The crimes allegedly took place between January 1999 and February 2002 in Angers' Saint-Leonard district.

Prosecutors say about half of the accused have admitted their guilt.

But the prosecution hopes to avoid any repetition of the errors that plagued a previous high-profile paedophile trial - the Outreau case in northern France last year.

In that case, the accused spent months in prison awaiting trial and 13 people were implicated on the testimony of a woman who later admitted she had been lying.

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I usually just find myself completely speechless and horrified by what human beings are capable of. It's most definitely not that I believe that we're all nice and friendly, but some things never stop disturbing me anyway, so I felt the need to post this.

Thoughts/comments?

HornyPope
03-03-2005, 02:52 PM
Michael Jackson unavailible for comment?

Jack the Tripper
03-03-2005, 03:21 PM
why would you want to rape a kid?

nieh
03-03-2005, 03:22 PM
A girl of 10 was allegedly raped by more than 30 adults.


that makes me feel sick. I want to hurt them horribly.

Jack the Tripper
03-03-2005, 03:23 PM
that makes me feel sick. I want to hurt them horribly.
same with me. I feel sorrry for the little kids involved with that sick bullshit.

TexasTechRocks
03-03-2005, 03:23 PM
god damn you french

nieh
03-03-2005, 03:37 PM
I don't understand how anyone can do that to a child. What makes it even worse is that those people were doing it to their OWN children and were LETTING OTHER PEOPLE DO IT TO! FOR FUCKING CIGARETTES What the fuck has to happen to you to make you that fucked up?

Jack the Tripper
03-03-2005, 03:46 PM
knowing that stuff makes me wanna throw up

T-6005
03-03-2005, 04:26 PM
god damn you french

Fuck you mate, that's both an uninformed and an overly general comment.... if France was like that, would they be on trial?

Skate Rat 19
03-03-2005, 04:33 PM
Only in France could this happen, why rape little kids, their undeveloped and its just wrong.

Tired_Of_You
03-03-2005, 04:48 PM
Shut up, France is not worse than any other country.

Jack the Tripper
03-03-2005, 06:18 PM
Shut up, France is not worse than any other country.
Lots of countries are better then France
USA, Canada, Mexico, Brazil, China, Japan, Russia, Germany, Norway, Ireland, Poland, England, Ukrain, etc.

Tired_Of_You
03-03-2005, 06:36 PM
Why?
It's getting on my nerves, France, France, France...arg...They are not so bad.
meh...you even named my country.

Jack the Tripper
03-03-2005, 06:42 PM
France, thay fuck children.

They are bad. They're fucking sick.

Tired_Of_You
03-03-2005, 06:53 PM
thay r liek de only cuntry who fuck children!!!!11!

UgLy_eLf
03-03-2005, 08:38 PM
Jacks ripping on France because he can, and you get mad, so that makes him giggle with joy.

Anyway, no surprise here once again, theres no end to the disgusting things that people will do when they're either desperate, or greedy. Their punishments should be as follows: castration and mutilation of the genetalia, all of them, males cut dem nuts off, females sow them cunts up. ANNNNNNDDDDDDDDDDDDDD if they don't live through it, oh well, score one for the rest of the world.

Izie
03-04-2005, 12:03 PM
Why did I even think this could actually go without idiots starting an idiotic debate?

I didn't really, but I tried anyway. Thanks to the people who cared enough to make real posts, and nieh, I completely agree with you. I would have added an extremly angry rant to the post, but I had already ranted about it in several places so my anger/disgust wouldn't have come out strong enough.

People who hurt kids that way aren't people, they're disgusting monsters.

*fumes arround a bit*

wheelchairman
03-04-2005, 12:37 PM
I'm gonna quote myself cause I'm so full of fuckin' good sense.


The french pedophiles are just the ones who were caught. If you think your country doesn't have this, then you are willfully ignorant. I'd rather live in a country that finds and imprisons these people than in a country where they pretend that it's only a foreign problem.

Izie
03-04-2005, 12:39 PM
I'll agree with your quote.

wheelchairman
03-04-2005, 12:44 PM
You didn't mention how full of hot air you were...
It's a read at your own risk type of thing.

Izie
03-04-2005, 12:46 PM
I'm French, I heard about the trial then forgot about it. It will fizzle out. It always does.
Formerly, children weren't listened to. Now they are, and we get bad publicity. I do not believe it will make ppl more aware of the issue, yet it will be a fair cop for the rapers.

Maria

I'll agree with this too, and the point of this topÓc had nothing to do with France as a country, it was just the biggest recent case.

I do wish it would make people more aware of the issue though.

SicN Twisted
03-04-2005, 01:20 PM
My problem with the whole thing is that nobody lsitens to children, they're just used as points when the Ministry of Justice wants to make an example and solidify what's left of France's judicial power in the EU. This shit's been going on forever, it wasn't till recently that people started carring about it. It's the same thing with the "banlieu" problem, the media keeps saying it's a new problem, but it's not, it's been going on forever. Chirac just wants people to start taking his country seriously so he's focusing a little less time on wine and tourism.

SicN Twisted
03-04-2005, 01:29 PM
I'm just as anti child rape as any of you are, but it really pisses me off when I hear shit like "they're not people, they're disgusting monsters." People are disgusting monsters hunny, the child rapists don't cross below and set barrier of right and wrong. They're just emotionally disturbed people. The good and evil thing is getting really good. Instead of a bunch of moral crusaders throwing child rapists in jail because they're apparently disgusting monsters, maybe they should be analysed and treated like people so we can understand why they do the things they do.

I'd actually prefer this thread disintegrate into idiotic debate then I would people make ridiculous moral judgements and see everything in black and white. Some people rape children, some people rape adults, some people abide by the law and live complacent lives, we're all fucking people.

the_GoDdEsS
03-05-2005, 02:59 AM
We're all fucking people, yes. I'd conclude people are fuck-ups.

The problem with raping children though is the mental factor. They can carry a much worse trauma than adults.

Not sure whether I'd agree on treating them like people. Sort of, yes. I'd psychoanalyze all bastards just to see what the cause is and then at least try to prevent these causes evolve in other people. Although that's utopia in today's society.

Plus, if those rapists are mentally retarded or anything like that, I'd just put them down immediately. Such scum has no right to live anyway.

SicN Twisted
03-05-2005, 12:22 PM
This is what I don't like. Many people are mentally disabled, some disabilities cause people to hurt themselves. People that have those are considered victims. Some disabilities would cause one to hurt other people, and they're consider scumbags. A child rapist is disabled similar to how a massochist is, he just gets different compulsions. People need to stop seeing and black and white, pedofiles are not evil, they're disturbed. Putting a pedofile in jail and an anorexic in the hostpital makes as much sense as putting an anorexic in jail and a pedofile in the hostial - they're both mental disorders and you all need to stop living in the middle ages and treat it as such.

SicN Twisted
03-07-2005, 11:05 AM
It's scientifically established that pedofilia is a mental disorder. Peoples hormones are fucked up and they feel compulsions to do these things, all studies have shown that it's a possibly curable disorder, and people who do it see the severity and the problem with what they're doing it. If you're saying it's not a mental disorder, then you're just an idiot. What is it, horrible evil people wanting to hurt children?

Mota Boy
03-07-2005, 11:34 AM
It's scientifically established that pedofilia is a mental disorder. Peoples hormones are fucked up and they feel compulsions to do these things, all studies have shown that it's a possibly curable disorder, and people who do it see the severity and the problem with what they're doing it. If you're saying it's not a mental disorder, then you're just an idiot. What is it, horrible evil people wanting to hurt children?
And so, according to you, paedophiles know that their actions are harming, both physically and mentally, small children, but they keep doing them because they get off on it? How are they any different from people that rape adults? You might have a bit of a point if you were talking about consensual sex, but we're talking about rape. Where do you draw the line between doing something because you're "compelled" to do it and doing something just because you want to do it?

SicN Twisted
03-07-2005, 12:12 PM
When it comes to children, there's really no line between consensual sex and rape, because children can never truly consent but probably wouldn't resist because they're not developed enough to know what's happening. The difference between a pedofile and a rapist is that they're mentally diseased into being compelled to fuck children. A serial killer is also not mentally stable, and I wouldn't recommend the imprisonment of someone who kills because voices in his head command him to.

I guess some child rapists are physically capable of resisting themselves, but their hormones still make them attracted to chilen so they're already at a disposition. Regardless, it is a mental disorder that should be treated medically, not in prisons. Saying something like "they're not even human, they're disgusting monsters" is a horrible way of looking at it.

HornyPope
03-07-2005, 12:20 PM
I'll kill the motherfucker who comes near my kids without thinking twice what truely compelled him to be whoever he is. Some things are best left unrationalized.

Mota Boy
03-07-2005, 12:43 PM
When it comes to children, there's really no line between consensual sex and rape, because children can never truly consent but probably wouldn't resist because they're not developed enough to know what's happening.
To me, the definition of rape is unconsentual sex. If I throw a party, ply you with booze and roofies til you pass out then have my way with you in the back room you haven't actually resisted me, but I'm pretty sure you'd agree that I raped you. Likewise with many children.



The difference between a pedofile and a rapist is that they're mentally diseased into being compelled to fuck children. A serial killer is also not mentally stable, and I wouldn't recommend the imprisonment of someone who kills because voices in his head command him to.
Now, I can see your point that a serial killer that hears voices should be sent to a hospital... though I'm thinking along the lines of a mental institution for the rest of their lives, but no point getting sidetracked.

Someone that hears voices, however, is insane. They have reached a point (like, say, if God or the neighbor's dog is telling them to kill) where they cannot distinguish between right and wrong, and so it's wrong to treat them like common criminals (emphasis on common). Paedophiles, however, are no more or less "diseased" than homosexuals. They know what they're doing is wrong ("they" being paedophiles, I ain't goin' all Falwell), but they do it anyway because it will give them pleasure. Now, to excuse this behavior because it's harder to understand than someone that, say, gets pleasure from robbing banks or groping women, is just silly. You're trying to be overly empathetic, but you forget that they make a conscious choice to harm another individual when they are fully aware of the consequences. Actions such as these cannot be tolerated or excused.


As for calling them a "monster", ehh. I see your point in that they're driven by a compulsion that none of us can fully understand. Over the couse of our lives almost all of us have a close relative that's a baby, and it's damn near impossible to ever fathom wanting to inflict harm on them. In the sense that we're ignoring the fact that they see the child as a sex object, we are being overly critical. But in the fact that they're hurting the child for the basest of human pleasures, that they're selfish enough to abuse a child and leave a mental mark on them that will remain for the rest of their lives... I can think of few worse things a human being could do.

SicN Twisted
03-07-2005, 02:32 PM
Please don't bring morals into this, we're two rational people, and talking about right and wrong in the context of the law seems very medieval. Let's speak for the sake of argument of the ability to coexist in society and the inability. If one wilfully has this inability and makes an effort to harm others, prison seems like an alternative, while if someone is naturally prone to doing things, this is a problem.

In the cases where child rapists have been studied, the majority of cases as resulting in irrestable compulsions. In the court case that's been going on in France, most of the culprit's were to established to have been raped as children themselves. A huge percentage of child rapists have been raped as children. Pedophelia is caused by alot of things - obsession with control, revenge on their own parents, or deepseated longing for innocence. The desire some have to fuck children is the exact same thing as the desire many of us have for clean shaven women, but taken way too far. There are many reasons behind pedophelia, but I highly doubt anyone rapes children for kicks. It's a psychological problem that should be treated as such. If someone gets compulsions to hurt themselves, they're seen as victims, but if they get compuilsions to hurt other people, they're aggressors, while in reality, it's the same for both of them - compulsions. A distinct line should be drawn between crimes committed for pleasure and crimes committed because of psychological damage.

Betty
03-07-2005, 02:51 PM
I like your point about not thinking they are horrible, evil, monsters.

HOWEVER, I think the whole "mental disorder" thing leads to an incredibly slippery slope. Who has the power to draw the line between somebody having an UNCONTROLLABLE mental disorder and somebody who just gave in to something they wanted to do? If I think "oh, that might be fun to do with a 5 year old little boy" and then I DO it, can I chalk that up to a mental disorder? Or just not having enough willpower to resist? I agree with Maria that there does have to be responsibility to a certain extent. I'd like to think that a lot of "crazy" people can still control their urges - it's just a lot harder. I'm also certain that some probably really can't. But it's such a grey line. I think a lot of people get off easy by claiming they have a mental problem. You can say I JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND because I don't have a mental problem myself (or do I?) and maybe that's true. But being the way I am, I am uncapable of sympathizing cause I have not experienced it and cannot even FATHOM what it would be like.

So, looking at it from a perspective of being able to cohabitate in a society, I do not think it is a positive thing for people to rape others, and especially children since they do not understand as well what is going on/are weaker/etc. So, sure, put these people in a mental institution. But they had better stay there until we are damn well sure that they are past their issues. They may not be evil, but they sure aren't fit to interact freely with society.

SicN Twisted
03-07-2005, 04:24 PM
If anyone can actually have sex with a child, they are mentally disturbed. Attraction to them, and in many cases, need for them is an urge that is possible to control, but if someone's desire to it is strong enough that they do it compulsively, their imprisonment should obviously occur in a place where doctors could research the - Most pedophiles are the way they are because of psychosexual trauma or just a fucked up head and shouldn't be among thieves and gang bangers.

SicN Twisted
03-08-2005, 09:47 AM
I'm not even gonna attempt to understand your post, or explain to you about how nothing I've said is even remotely freudian. Modern science has shown pedophelia to be a disability, it has nothing to do with psychoanalysis. Watch out logic and reason here comes duskygrin to take ambiguous jabs at you.

SicN Twisted
03-08-2005, 11:20 AM
What's all this about clear enunciation. I'm not trying to defend any logical fallacy, the only point I'm going on about is how you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. I'm speaking clearly scientifically, and what's proven by the laws of science and hormones, and you're somehow trying to disprove me because I elaborate too much. That's such a stupid argument - because I make a detailed argument, I must be wrong. Wow, you're pretty dense, the faux Lacanian logic almost had me fooled. S'il vous plait, arretez avec vos conneries.

SicN Twisted
03-08-2005, 11:46 AM
Science can easily lump pederasts together as mentality disabled because the sexual attraction to young children is a mental disability. Human hormones do not normally work that way and if they do, there's a serious problem. Child rapists aren't out for a thrill, they're out for sexual fulfilment that they can't recieve any other way. I'm not defending them and saying they're good people, I'm simply saying their rehabilitation shouldn't occur amongst thieves and robbers who I know from firsthand experience as an ex-jailbird, don't take too kindly to them. If it's all petty crime, then how come it's been going on in the catholic church practicly since it's dawn - it might have something to do with the traditions and vows to celebacy of catholic priests and their revolution throughout the years. And please reply to this with an actual point, not a vague confusing diatribe? Gah, why do so many French people reply to rational arguments with theoretics?

Lithuanian Offspring
03-08-2005, 11:51 AM
Science can easily lump pederasts together as mentality disabled because the sexual attraction to young children is a mental disability. Human hormones do not normally work that way and if they do, there's a serious problem. Child rapists aren't out for a thrill, they're out for sexual fulfilment that they can't recieve any other way. I'm not defending them and saying they're good people, I'm simply saying their rehabilitation shouldn't occur amongst thieves and robbers who I know from firsthand experience as an ex-jailbird, don't take too kindly to them. If it's all petty crime, then how come it's been going on in the catholic church practicly since it's dawn - it might have something to do with the traditions and vows to celebacy of catholic priests and their revolution throughout the years. And please reply to this with an actual point, not a vague confusing diatribe? Gah, why do so many French people reply to rational arguments with theoretics?
If they are out for sexual fulfillment then that means that anyone can rape some one and blame it on their hormones. If they're hormones cause them to like children why don't they control it like every other guy controls his urge to have sex with a chick (for example)?

SicN Twisted
03-08-2005, 11:53 AM
Regular hetereosexual guys are not isolated by their sexuality and can walk by a female without going completely fucking crazy. Maybe some can control their urges, that's to be determined, but putting a pedophile in jail will not solve anything.

Lithuanian Offspring
03-08-2005, 11:56 AM
Yes, it will. It will keep him away from other children. You're stupid, man. Just because he doesn't benefit from being in jail doesn't mean society won't benefit from it. Plus he might learn to control his urges. It would be like a social spanking.

SicN Twisted
03-08-2005, 12:09 PM
It's no the judicial system's duty to spank someone and make them feel bad about what they've done. It's the judicial system's duty to protect society while rehabilitating the criminal. Put someone in prison, they'll come back with the same urges and most likely become a repeat offender. Putting a pedophile in a mental hospital to help understand the source of tehir problem and get rid of it is the most rational thing to do.

Betty
03-08-2005, 02:55 PM
This could sound a little sketchy... but humans can be quite kinky. Some get off on gay sex, some get off on anal sex, some get off on food masturbation, some may get off on beastiality, some get off on whipping/spanking/violence, some get off on feces... Are these things gross? Maybe. Are these thing "morally wrong"? Who has the right to say. So why does getting off on children have to be a disorder? The PROBLEM is actually going through with it, when you shouldn't be doing it.

nieh
03-08-2005, 03:26 PM
If pedophilia is in fact a mental disorder, then it's the individual's job to seek help before it becomes detrimental to society. If a person feels him or herself becoming attracted to children for some reason or another, it's their responsibility as a member of society to seek therapy if they feel it's difficult to control their urges on their own. As people have stated, they know perfectly well that following through on them has horrible effects on the child which in turn has a horrible impact on society as a whole. It is their responsibilty as a member of society to not fuck things up. Failure to seek help after feeling these urges and molesting a child should be (and thankfully is) a crime.

SicN Twisted
03-08-2005, 03:26 PM
People who get off on feces don't severely damage another person for the rest of their life, so that mental disorder doesn't need to desperately be cured. I'll just leave you to observe the fact that a huge number of pedophiles were sexually abused as children themselves. Think of where this leads us.

nieh
03-08-2005, 03:38 PM
People who get off on feces don't severely damage another person for the rest of their life

I beg to differ, the mere thought of feces used in sex makes me want to become a monk. Just imagine if I actually experienced it!

SicN Twisted
03-08-2005, 09:22 PM
Happily for you, most of it goes on behind closed doors, unless you accidentally stumble into to certain shops to ask for directions.

Betty
03-08-2005, 09:41 PM
Yeah. It's true. But most of the ways people act have to do with their upbringing and their experiences. That's different than a genetic disorder though. It's just like, psychological traumatic experience.

As always, it may be a reason, but is it an EXCUSE, a JUSTIFICATION?

And yes, feces sex normally does go on behind closed doors, as do most of the sexual acts mentionned. I guess my point was to say that it doesn't necessarily means it's WRONG to feel sexual urges towards children (hence not necessarily a problem or a disorder). But it is wrong to act upon them because that, unlike feces sex, can hurt others.

Lithuanian Offspring
03-09-2005, 11:15 AM
It's no the judicial system's duty to spank someone and make them feel bad about what they've done. It's the judicial system's duty to protect society while rehabilitating the criminal. Put someone in prison, they'll come back with the same urges and most likely become a repeat offender. Putting a pedophile in a mental hospital to help understand the source of tehir problem and get rid of it is the most rational thing to do.
You think protecting little children form pedophiles isn't protecting the society. Man, if your child was raped you would be singing a totally different tune. Plus, there have been many interviews with pedophiles who admitted to having planed out all of their moves and actions, that means they do not act on impulse alone.

Vera
03-09-2005, 01:34 PM
They've committed crimes. They should be treated, but I don't think they should be allowed loose, because it's not certain that some of these people understand what they've done and how awful it is, what they have done. If they were allowed to walk free and get away with a few hours of therapy, who's to say they won't do it again? If they truly have a mental illness, it just might be that some of them might continue their actions.

Prison doesn't cure anyone, but not convicting people because what they did *might* be caused by a mental illness/distability? Not on, dude, not on.

Also, I think this case seems way too organized to say none of these people had any clue what the fuck they were doing.

And please don't compare paedophilia to a kink. What two adult people do in the privacy of their own homes if they both get off on it without harming anyone else is completely fine. Eat your shit, lick menstrual blood of each other, it might gross me out, but it's *okay*. But if you fuck a child or an animal, it stops being fine because that's hurting someone. If you jack off to child pornography, you're supporting an industry that exploits children sexually, so that's not fine, either.

SicN Twisted
03-10-2005, 01:00 AM
I never said turn them lose, but throwing them in prison will never solve the problem, cause it obviously doesn't deter pedophilia. If they were treated psycologically and medically the roots of the problem can be discovered so the problem can be prevented or possibly cured.

Betty
03-10-2005, 03:44 AM
I honestly do think a big issue for that is money, Sic.

Vera
03-10-2005, 07:58 AM
On topic, there's a movie coming out, starring Kevin Bacon. He plays a paedophile struggling after prison. It doesn't sympathise the paedophile's actions, but I read an interview where Bacon said paedophilia, as a sickness, could be compared to alcoholism or drug addiction or an eating disorder. You may be "cured", but you can never get rid of the risk of slipping into "the old habit", again.

I'm kind of curious about the movie, though I doubt it'll play in theaters here. Especially what with recent events.

T-6005
03-11-2005, 08:17 PM
I never said turn them lose, but throwing them in prison will never solve the problem, cause it obviously doesn't deter pedophilia. If they were treated psycologically and medically the roots of the problem can be discovered so the problem can be prevented or possibly cured.

If the problem is having pedophiles on the loose, then throwing the ones that have infringed the law in some way in jail has obviously cured that problem to an extent.

It obviously hasn't solved their problems, which is what I think you mean. But even if, say, you did solve their problems - you found a man who had raped an 8 year old girl, and "cured" him of this obssessive desire for children - what then? Can you turn him back out? Do you suggest keeping him in the mental facility he happens to be in? He's going to have to pay for the acts he has committed because they are wrong. The law is not there to grant dispensation because "You're all better now". The man has committed a horrible act.

I'm not saying it was necessarily right to sentence him - was it right to put Karla Faye Tucker to death? - but somewhere, some form of retribution should be had. A very "eye for an eye" approach, perhaps, but we don't live in a perfect world.

SicN Twisted
03-12-2005, 12:24 AM
Do you live in the middle ages? How can you possibly use words like retribution in the 21st century? Yes, I do believe that if a pedophile is cured they should be let back into society because if it's obvious they won't commit the same crime again, there's no reason to keep them. Prisons exist, apparently, to rehabilitate criminals, not punish them. If someone's in prison for life it means the state believes they are incapable of living in society without committing crimes. Retribution is a useless dated theological idea that has no bearing on modern society. You can't blandly say that someone should be punished because what they did was wrong, it's not the judicial system's job to impose right over wrong, it's their job to protect people so they can live their lives peacefully. Also, imprisoning someone does not cure the problem to any extent, because the problem will keep occuring generation after generation if it's roots are not understood.

T-6005
03-17-2005, 05:48 AM
You seem to be saying that the problem is congenital in your statement that the problem will reoccur generation after generation. And yes, I am quite proudly using retribution and believe that an individual should only be let back into society after he has been sufficiently punished and rehabilited (being cured of this condition should obviously be the primary goal, otherwise I do not believe that the individual should ever be let back into society).

Prisons are for punishment, not rehabilitation. They can be used as rehabilitation centers for those with disorders, such as pedophilia, yet that is not their primary purpose. Drug dealers are almost certainly capable of living in society without committing crime, yet the state keeps them locked away as a punishment for their actions.

Alright, that was a bad example - a passion murderer is a better one. He is locked away because he succumbed to a brief bout of intense emotion and acted on it. But wait - he regrets it! Obviously he can live in society without committing a crime, let's let him out!

Retribution as a concept is prevalent throughout modern society. I did not mean is as it is used in the concept of karma, but rather on immediate and deserved punishment. This does not mean, however, that I consider myself sufficiently endowed with moral and mental faculties to tell others what a suitable punishment for a person that has committed atrocities on a child.

SicN Twisted
03-17-2005, 10:51 AM
Retribution is a concept is prevalent amongst simple minded people. Retribution in reality will never solve anything, since someone's moral motives behind their actions are simply products of their own psyche.

Trip Boy
03-17-2005, 03:45 PM
People talk far to much.

Goblin
03-17-2005, 04:12 PM
agree......