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KappaWing
03-24-2005, 04:36 PM
With Bush threatening to shut down government funding and the Governator doing exactly the opposite, this issue is a citical point regarding the social attitudes of our leaders and our fellow citizens. Thoughts on this, please?

Reefer
03-24-2005, 04:39 PM
With Bush threatening to shut down government funding and the Governator doing exactly the opposite,

Governator!!! "i'll be back" Is he seriosuly called that dude?! :D

My opinion:

I fucking cant stand bush the guys a total christian good samaritan type when it comes to things like this and like that woman who he's trying to same atm (you know the one), but when it comes to stuff like killing a load of ppl in irak and stuff he's all cool with it.

the man's full of contradictions and is a damn hypocrite :mad:

nieh
03-24-2005, 04:43 PM
As many individual lives as there are that would be saved or improved by stem cell research, I'd still have to say I'm generally against further research on it. It's just a step in a direction for society that I don't ever want us to go down.

Not Ozymandias
03-24-2005, 06:13 PM
I'd kill every unwanted fetus in the world with my bare hands to save one person from the misery of Alzheimer's. You can't compare a clump of goo to a human being.

So I'm kinda for it.

KappaWing
03-24-2005, 08:04 PM
I support it, but I do understand the 'slippery slope' situation. I would never vote for cloning or human-animal hybrid gene-splicing, but issues like abortion and ESTR are not even near the redline. I personally woulden't care if I was terminated as a zygote, in the name of abortion or ESTR, as I wouldent have the brain to do so.

I like the way Arnie is handling things. He governs with the political attitude of a Republican but with the moral views of a Liberal. And even Bush would think twice before messing with the Governator, as people don't like their cultural icons getting dissed.

JoY
03-24-2005, 08:49 PM
I know it's pretty absurd for me to say this, seeing that I study medicine, but.. you may wonder if all our messing around with life, as much as we do already, in the end does any good to the world. to individuals, sure. but humanity will probably live shorter & shorter every time we invent something new to keep people alive, who normally would've died in a natural environment. we already have machines, transplantations, special surgery methods, transfusions, billion kinds of medicines... I think that in the end we're only digging ourselves a hole. a deep, black, gaping hole.

fine, so we have a lot of knowledge of the human body at the moment. why not use the knowledge we have now, if it can help somebody. it'd be harsh, inhuman & outright cruel not to. & I'm not saying there's anything wrong with saving a life, or improving one. hell, it's the reason I study what I study to begin with. to me it's beautiful. but no matter how nobel the intentions of medical research may be.. it's really got to stop somewhere, or we'll end up becoming 150 years old at least & run out of anything you can run out of on this planet. place, food, oil, wood, you name it. our downfall WILL come, but it'd be nice if it wasn't any time too soon.


Edit: typo. not entirely unexpected at six in the morning.

HornyPope
03-24-2005, 10:45 PM
I was reading about how the first heart transplant was done in South Africa and the criticism surrounding it back in 60s. The Church, religious figures and conservaties were vehemently agaisnt the operation naturally. The purely medical concidental fact that the donor was a black man while the reciever was a wealthy whitey only poured more fuel on the flaming issue.

SicN Twisted
03-25-2005, 03:36 AM
Whether or not you believe that stem cell research is right or wrong, I think the most important question is whether the government has the right to ban in, or even not fund it. The only logic I can think of to not support stem cell research is the life in an interventionalist god. Those of us who aren't religious have no reason whatsoever to consider this research unnatural or wrong, since a belief in god is the only thing that causes concern or fear of some transcendent force that's stronger then man. If you don't believe in god, then it would be logical to beliveve then any progress man is capable of making should be pursued, such as stem cell research.

Joy, why do you think nature is so powerful? Since the middle ages, science has managed to double the human life span. We've created cars and airplanes, we're able to channel electricity to give us light and heat - we've created vaccines for ailments that used to be considers natural acts of god. As humans, we're more powerful then nature. It's getting to the point where science will keep us alive long past the end of the earth, and even the end of physical life as we know it. We're evolving, that's something people need to understand. We're escaping the boundries set by natural order - we're controlling them and destroying them. That's the beauty of science and medicine, humans are becoming themsevles an entity more powerful then nature, and definately more powerful then whatever force we used to think is a god. I don't understand why reactionaries can't accept that we're beginning to control our own fates. It's only fear that causes skepticism of things like stem cell research. I actively support cloning and whatever we discover beyond, hopefully immortality through cryonics. Why are you all so afraid to evolve?

KappaWing
03-25-2005, 06:19 AM
Immortality is definatley a good thing, but I don't know about cloning.

Cloning generates humans that are the complete duplicate of another human, so the clone is void of his individuality. For me, a living, breathing human being being 'owned and operated' by a scientist scares me, even though I don't believe in a god. If I was not my own self, If i was some product of a cloning experiment, I'd be pretty pissed of. Animals and plants are fine but human cloning should be avoided unless there are some extreme circumstances. Like for example a brilliant scientist nears the end of his life, but he hasen't yet contributed all that he can. I would support cloning in that instance because it benifits humanity and the clone would be happy knowing that he has the mind and body of a mastermind scientist. But cloning for the sake of "Whoop de doo! lookat me! I can make clones!" is somewhat absurd.

JoY
03-25-2005, 08:01 AM
Sic - progress. moving forward. tell me, dear Sic: which way is forward? does it imply 'to know more'? because sometimes knowing more only turns out to be degressive (or whatever). but oh man, are we civilised creatures!


Immortality is definatley a good thing,

you just said something extremely important, strange but true. this is NOT as much a medical discussion as a ethical discussion. what's good?

because to be honest, immortality sounds terrible to me. outright horrible. nothing to live towards, no goals you have to achieve within a certain time (so how would economics survive, or anything for that matter?), every disaster you'll survive, no matter what that does to you emotionally or physically, staying together & making a commitment with someone for the rest of your life becomes utterly useless, the difference between generations becomes either vague or disappears, & last but not least; if we 'win' immortality, that doesn't mean the rest in this world suddenly stops being ever-ending. there's no use to bond to a place, to care for anything, to love at all for that matter, as everything goes, besides you. even the hormones, that cause love. your life, your precious never-ending life, would be a chain of goodbyes.

& I haven't even begun about how the amount of people would become a serious problem. I for one want a kid, when I grow up. I definitely do. if we'd all be immortal, it'd be immoral to have a child. but oh right, science will find a solution for that, once it gets that far. THAT'S exactly what I'm afraid of. that science DOESN'T have all the answers we need. right now there are already so many questions unanswered, because we have a blind faith in science & therefore fail to see there might be anything besides it. & what if the question, that one of our precious answers of science raises, can't be solved? after every answer science gives us, our questions demand more & more of science & the pressure to answer them becomes greater & greater. we invent cars, we polute the world. how to stop this? we're still trying to figure that one out. right now we can only slightly limit the damage we do.

our society has gotten very extremely individualistic. these days the concerns/interests of the individual are seen as way more important than that of society, even though we DO live in a social environment together. rules apply to everyone, still every single person needs to personally be defended in court. even though an entire family will have to take care of a grandmother with no memory, who continuously wets the bed, who curses the entire bible to hell & back, doctors have to keep her alive with full effort, because she's a person, an individual.

we complain that computers take away our individuality, our identity & turn us into numbers, but the thing is; our individualism reaches way further than our socialism & you may wonder if this is GOOD. (bring on -your- definition of 'good') our individualism makes us feel special little creatures in return, but the consequences of this society reach extremely far. individualism has almost became an excuse; "I'm sorry for what I did, but that's just the way I am." "you don't understand me, because I'm oh so different." etcetera.

I could go on forever, but I do think my point is pretty clear by now.

Piedude
03-25-2005, 09:22 AM
The human brain wouldnt be able to cope with immortality anyway, t'would be too much for it to handle. Time would become meaningless if you had too much of it.

Revolver-2005?
03-25-2005, 09:56 AM
i think itd be nice if we could cure all these diseases with stem cell research, and itd be nice if people didnt die of disease...but things like age...and being sat on by a 1000 pound fat dude...stuff like that

Betty
03-25-2005, 10:08 AM
I think science and technology are amazing things. Even if it may not be "best for the world", which is an entirely subjective opinion, I don't see how humans could possibly be happy in a world where they did not strive to gain more knowledge and make "progress". It is just natural to move forward with any knowledge you have and gain new knowledge, etc, etc.

There is a point where you have to stop, but I definitely don't think stem cell research or gene manipulation is it.

HOWEVER, I don't think it should be funded unless the research is actually making progress and proving ot be useful. That is a different issue.

Mota Boy
03-25-2005, 11:09 AM
A solution. (http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/science/03/21/australia.stemcell/)

SicN Twisted
03-25-2005, 11:42 AM
You know, Joy, it looks like we have completely opposite worldviews. I think that without immortality, there's nothing to live for. The majority of people in the world agree with me on that actually, but unfortunately in most cases it's immortality of the soul. The desire for immortality is one of the things that keeps people going to church, while I like to pursue immortality through a medical path. Without immortality, what's the point of existing? We can live long healthy lives, or short painful ones, but all our ashes will be the same, and we'll have no perception. Once your conscious is destroyed, you're nothing. Everything you've learned and created, all love you've ever felt for anyone perishes into nothingness. I believe in immortality just for the preservation of my thoughts and memories, and I don't even know how I could live if I didn't consider immortality a possibility. If someone ever dies, then they've never been alive. I don't understand how anyone could possibly accept death and still have motivation.

This has gotten completely ethical, so I won't bother talking about the science of cryonics. I'll just say that, by "forward" I certainly don't mean adherence to nature like many people do.

Betty
03-25-2005, 11:49 AM
Sic, what you say is quite valid... but I don't know, I think one can have a very "live in the present" type of view of life and then they don't necessarily need immortality to be happy.

Although you say it isn't, your viewpoint sounds VERY religious.

KappaWing
03-25-2005, 12:15 PM
An entire society of immortals may be a problem. For example, who wants to be a firefighter when one false step means you've blown the next billion years? No one would want to risk things, and the value of time would depreciate. People will take for granted all the time they have and forget that they were once a mortal race.

I found it interesting what SicN Twisted said earlier about the lack of purpose in life if there is no immortality. However, there are many different visions of immortality. There is the religious one (Heaven/Hell), the scientific one, (Live forever), but what about changing the world? IMHO, leaving your mark on the world is the only way to achieve immortality, at least for now.

SicN Twisted
03-25-2005, 12:44 PM
It's not religious cause I believe it's entirely in my hands. My upmost belief in a continued perception is a bit existential in a twisted way, and you could say metaphysical, but definately not religious.

JoY
03-25-2005, 01:20 PM
You know, Joy, it looks like we have completely opposite worldviews. I think that without immortality, there's nothing to live for. The majority of people in the world agree with me on that actually, but unfortunately in most cases it's immortality of the soul. The desire for immortality is one of the things that keeps people going to church, while I like to pursue immortality through a medical path. Without immortality, what's the point of existing? We can live long healthy lives, or short painful ones, but all our ashes will be the same, and we'll have no perception. Once your conscious is destroyed, you're nothing. Everything you've learned and created, all love you've ever felt for anyone perishes into nothingness. I believe in immortality just for the preservation of my thoughts and memories, and I don't even know how I could live if I didn't consider immortality a possibility. If someone ever dies, then they've never been alive. I don't understand how anyone could possibly accept death and still have motivation.

This has gotten completely ethical, so I won't bother talking about the science of cryonics. I'll just say that, by "forward" I certainly don't mean adherence to nature like many people do.
I don't see how immortality would give you any drive to live. our reason to live isn't really to live on & on forever, right? I mean.. how useless would that be? we're in a world with billions of other people, only very few of us will stand out in the crowd. the ones that do truly live forever, because they live on in other people's memory.

wine doesn't make me explain things more rationally, but in my head it all makes sense & in my head I have a good point. I just can't make it very clear right now.

maybe I'm one of those hopeless romantics, that believes our main goal in life is to reach a certain extacy through love & simple pleasures. or does that make me a hippy? can't be really sure. but I do think the main goal in life is to make something of it, meaning you surround yourself with people, things & activities you love. ALL of that eventually goes away. maybe it'll be replaced by something new, but everything in life is ending. it makes perfect sense for us to go away at some point too. if we don't.. we'll have to live with the fact, that everything we admit to our lives & hearts, will eventually pass. so life WOULD become a chain of goodbyes. wouldn't that stop about anyone to admit anything to their hearts? it'd stop me, I think.

in my case; why becoming a doctor now, when I can become one in hundred years too? or what if my job becomes useless & unnecessary in time? why love my boyfriend now, when I know it'll pass? it's been hard enough to stay together for 8 months, what if you could literally spend an eternity with each other? that just won't happen.

I know eternity sounds wonderful in most ears, but.. I've seen my grandmother slowly dying without any reason to live in her life left. everything she loved had already gone away. it made so much sense for her to go away too. & she lives on. in my memory & that of her other grandchildren & her sons. on top her & her husband's life was described in books, practically she'll live on forever.

& if I'd die tomorrow, my life still would've made perfect sense. I've had wonderful moments, that not only I remember. I lived through numerous of things in which I felt & knew the support & love of others. I have a boyfriend, that I love so much, that I finally understand it's not necessary to live forever, or to be with him forever. as long as I'm with him right now. what on earth happened to right now? we're only living in a future, that's ahead of us & might never come.

as I said, I don't fully & blindly trust science. I've seen a few bad side effects it can have & as much as I love science & what you can do with it, the wider science gets, the more bad side effects there will be. imagine having to live with those side effects forever & ever.

if your reason to live is to live in the future, your life is pretty sad, I think.

JoY
03-25-2005, 01:21 PM
Sic, what you say is quite valid... but I don't know, I think one can have a very "live in the present" type of view of life and then they don't necessarily need immortality to be happy.

right, exactly.

I must say I do understand your point of view, Sic. & it's a good point you make. I guess I just look at life in a different way & at science too.

SicN Twisted
03-26-2005, 12:07 AM
I certainly believe in ecstasy through love and simple pleasures (more simple pleasures, less strings attached then love), but it's depressing to think that once you die it all goes away. You can't really live through the memory of others because you have no perception and knowledge of what's going on, and as I said, I don't see anything beyond one's perception. I don't think there's any transcendent force, or spirit, or high energy that makes living go beyond our senses. That's not to say I blindly trust science, because our emotional patterns cannot be explained by a brain surgeon. We're complex creatures and science certainly can't explain and solve everything, but without a continued perception, it's all futile anyway.

Don't worry, you're making wonderful points. I need to be slightly drunk in order to even read posts in this forum let alone construct a thesis.

Not Ozymandias
07-09-2005, 07:01 PM
,, /,.,.m/ / .//,

Endymion
07-09-2005, 08:35 PM
http://www.csulb.edu/~rjames/classic/kermit.png