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Mota Boy
04-09-2005, 02:37 AM
I wonder - is sleep a natural byproduct of becoming an intelligent, active organism or is it just the natural reprecussions of living on a planet with a day and a night?

I thought about this first to entertain myself as I drove along the highway as the Sun's glow faded into nothingness... but then I thought some more... Fish don't sleep, and their lives never depend directly on the Sun. The first creatures to live upon the land were amphibians, which gave rise to reptiles... both of them (as cold-blooded organisms) got most of their energy through the Sun. Perhaps sleep was just a way to conserve energy through the long, cold, nights. Perhaps sleep - a mini-hibernation - was the best way to stay alive... perhaps that just happened to be passed down to us mammals, which, as a warm-blooded... phylum(?) were too ingrained in the sleeping ways to re-evolve a way to stay up all night.

So, I pose this question to y'all - do you think that we, as higher organisms, need sleep to best recharge our neurons and muscles or do you think that it's just a vestigal use of the dark?

the_GoDdEsS
04-09-2005, 02:46 AM
Brilliant. It never occured to me like that and I've no idea if I can answer the question. But I'll keep it in mind this Saturday and wonder about the conclusion.

Endymion
04-09-2005, 02:53 AM
sharks supposedly sleep.

plus, sleep isn't exactly tied to day/night. the human body (and i believe all primates) work on a 25 hour 'internal' day. if you're put in a room with no notion of time (no sun, no clock, etc) you'll naturally fall into a 25 hour day.

supposedly this is so various animals that inhabit a single area don't step on each other's toes so much (or to avoid having the same wake/sleep pattern as some preditor).

pardon any spelling errors, my laptop's keyboard is being stupid and it's 2am.

RXP
04-09-2005, 02:54 AM
I'm sure google has an answer.

Endymion
04-09-2005, 02:58 AM
and screw google, wikipedia always has an interesting read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep

Izie
04-09-2005, 02:59 AM
plus, sleep isn't exactly tied to day/night. the human body (and i believe all primates) work on a 25 hour 'internal' day. if you're put in a room with no notion of time (no sun, no clock, etc) you'll naturally fall into a 25 hour day.

I go with this and add that in my oppinion, sleep has to be a recharging (thus necessary) thing, given that you die of sleep deprivation. We used to deal with sleep a lot in psychology classes, too bad we never got any good answers about pretty much anything.

Excuse the idiocy of the reply, I seem unable to write anything coherent and meaningfull these days.

*goes off to bang head against the wall*

Little_Miss_1565
04-09-2005, 07:23 AM
Fish may not sleep, but their lives do depend on the sun. Photosynthesis makes their foodage. Unless they're one of those glowfish at the darkest depths. Then, whatever. But fish don't sleep because if they stopped moving, they'd suffocate. I think it's safe to say that humans can stop walking around without worrying of such.

I think sleep is beautiful. After so long as a raging insomniac, I believe fully it is the only effective way to recharge.

notoriousdoc
04-09-2005, 07:28 AM
I go with this and add that in my oppinion, sleep has to be a recharging (thus necessary) thing, given that you die of sleep deprivation. We used to deal with sleep a lot in psychology classes, too bad we never got any good answers about pretty much anything.

Excuse the idiocy of the reply, I seem unable to write anything coherent and meaningfull these days.

*goes off to bang head against the wall*

banging your head doesn't help i use screwdrivers *heh*

the_GoDdEsS
04-09-2005, 08:17 AM
banging your head doesn't help i use screwdrivers *heh*

Oh, I think that explains a lot.

Izie
04-09-2005, 08:20 AM
banging your head doesn't help i use screwdrivers *heh*

It shows dear, believe me. Good job there! *thumbs up*

Jackish
04-09-2005, 08:30 AM
Does motaboy always make such good topics and discussions? Well done dude, good thought of the day i tell 'thee!

My random fact of the day boils down to - Ants don't sleep.

Mota Boy
04-09-2005, 04:36 PM
Fish may not sleep, but their lives do depend on the sun. Photosynthesis makes their foodage... I think it's safe to say that humans can stop walking around without worrying of such.
Yeah, that's why I said they don't directly depend on it, chica.

The thing is, though, sleep is horrendously dangerous. Basically you spend a good chunk of the day almost completely defenseless to predators. It's completely counter-productive to survival that we require as much sleep as we do.


And Jack, I'm one of this forum's few saving graces.

Jack the Tripper
04-09-2005, 04:39 PM
Mota Boy is obviously the smartest person here. He thinks of more things than me and I think about things more than half of each day and night.

ruroken
04-09-2005, 04:40 PM
I don't even bother to read them. I have interesting things to say, I'm just too lazy to type them...

Little_Miss_1565
04-09-2005, 08:05 PM
The thing is, though, sleep is horrendously dangerous. Basically you spend a good chunk of the day almost completely defenseless to predators. It's completely counter-productive to survival that we require as much sleep as we do.

...but then when do you cuddle?

Endymion
04-09-2005, 09:07 PM
The thing is, though, sleep is horrendously dangerous. Basically you spend a good chunk of the day almost completely defenseless to predators. It's completely counter-productive to survival that we require as much sleep as we do.

this article needs to be expanded, but... check the bolded part:

"Experiments with rats have been designed to measure the effects of severe sleep deprivation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_deprivation). In one, a pair of rats was placed on a platform, separated by a movable wall. Both were instrumented with electroencephalograms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroencephalogram). Whenever the "subject" rat began to show signs of sleep, the partition was moved, forcing both rats to move. The "control" rat, however, could sleep in between movements. After several weeks of this, the subject rats became unable to regulate body temperature; even if they were allowed to sleep at this point, they died shortly afterward. As of 2004 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004), it is as yet unclear exactly what the mechanism which causes death in rats due to sleep deprivation is. There does not appear to be any specific organ failure, and administering antibiotics, and autopsies appears to rule out a general collapse of the immune system. However, some recent studies (late 2003 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003)/early 2004) not only concluded the cause of death to be more closely related to REM deprivation, also found the rats to die in about a week less time. It is believed this is because, unlike non-REM sleep that repairs parts of the brain damaged by metabolism and free radicals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_radical), REM sleep repairs the repair center. Despite the fact that rats die in this type of experiment, humans do not. It is also unclear the degree to which the results of sleep deprivation in rats can be generalized to humans. There are no reported cases of a human dying or suffering any permanent ill effects solely from sleep deprivation (although the impairment of mental functioning, i.e., hallucinations, associated with being awake for extended periods has been cited as the cause of many fatal accidents). Furthermore, while loss of sleep results in adverse psychological changes to human beings, experiments in humans do not show the physiological effects (such as loss of temperature regulation) that are seen in rats. This supposition is a subject of some debate among sleep researchers, with some arguing that perhaps sleep performs some functions in rats that also exist in waking humans, or that humans have some protection mechanism that causes people to eventually fall asleep regardless of external stimulus."

so sleep is needed to repair the brain... i wish i could remember more about sleep from my high school psychology class.

oh, also... i one of the supposed reasons for the mildly differing circadian rhythms in various animals was so that your sleeping time didn't (always) coinside with a predators hunting time. i think one of the reasons given for phases of sleep was so that one wasn't is 'deep' sleep all the time, so had a better chance of waking up if in danger.

Homer
04-09-2005, 10:07 PM
Why are we even arguing about sleep?

Endymion
04-09-2005, 11:07 PM
argue? no, we're all putting forth our ideas so that we all may learn from it.

Homer
04-09-2005, 11:17 PM
What exactly are we learning? We sleep, other animals don't. That's how it works.

Endymion
04-09-2005, 11:22 PM
no, other animals DO sleep. in fact, one thing we've said is that all animals at least as complex as a fruit fly sleep. question is WHY they do it and WHY it evolved in the first place.

Homer
04-09-2005, 11:34 PM
no, other animals DO sleep.

I know, I didn't say that ALL of the other animals didn't sleep.

Mota Boy
04-10-2005, 01:24 AM
Why are we even arguing about sleep?
We're doing something that is traditionally called "thinking". Because you apparently have never engaged in this activity, you should stay out of this thead. Also, stay out of all threads that I create. They may induce this dangerous "thought" process in your unprepared mind. For your own benefit, and mine, stay away from anything I say for the remainder that I unfortunately move in the same internet social circle as yourself.


You know, Endymion, I realized tonight, as I was talking about this with some of my friends, that I'll never know the answer. Of course, if we as evolving organisms, over the course of countless millions of years... OK, we can count the fucking years roughly, but bear with me... have made very good use of our time unconscious. We've evolved in a way that our unconscious thought is just as essential to our well-being as our conscious thought. Now, there is no direct way to disprove this. Michelle tried to best me over MSN, but I ultimately prevailed (this may have been a factor of me running out of time, as I had "homemade" fried catfish and pulled pork BBQ waiting for me at a famous local cafe, but I digress). Anyway, it's something I can equally argue each way, perhaps because I'm fucking brilliant at the art of argumentation, but more likely because this is something that we'll never be able to answer. *cue Michi's response* I SAID - WE'LL NEVER BE ABLE TO ANSWER IT!

Homer
04-10-2005, 01:26 AM
We're doing something that is traditionally called "thinking". Because you apparently have never engaged in this activity, you should stay out of this thead. Also, stay out of all threads that I create. They may induce this dangerous "thought" process in your unprepared mind. For your own benefit, and mine, stay away from anything I say for the remainder that I unfortunately move in the same internet social circle as yourself.

oh. that hurt my feelings

Mota Boy
04-10-2005, 01:37 AM
"Feelings" are for higher organisms, stop pretending that you have them. Enjoy this post as much as you can, because this is the last time that I will ever respond to you. Die a virgin, you worthless waste of resources - your very existence defames my species.

Homer
04-10-2005, 01:39 AM
your very existence defames my species.

sorry, I'm not a bitch. :D

Endymion
04-10-2005, 01:45 AM
i agree that unless it can be decoded somehow from genetic ancestry, we can not know for sure whether sleep comes from a necessity for those physiological 'clean ups' that take place, or whether those simply took advantage of the day/night deal and became dependent upon them.

at least i think that's what you're saying? my head is elsewhere at the moment.

Mota Boy
04-10-2005, 02:00 AM
at least i think that's what you're saying? my head is elsewhere at the moment.
I have been drunk for every post in this thread. You need not make excuses, grasshopper.

Inshane
04-10-2005, 04:10 AM
I don't really know what to answer to your questions about sleep, ill try.

Since I have a Chronical Fatique Syndrom I know a lot about sleep, I almost slept a whole year. I can't believe sleep is just to recharge your 'batteries', almost everytime I go to bed I wake up as tired as I was before. Im constantly tired, not because I have a busy life but because I have that syndrom. In my situation sleep does not recharge me. (or recharge me correctly). I guess that in a normal situation sleep is mainly about recharging and resting your mind. to slowly process all the influences you get during the day. I wouldnt really know as I cant really feel any difference in when Im tired and when I need sleep.

TheUnholyNightbringer
04-10-2005, 07:27 AM
Does motaboy always make such good topics and discussions? Well done dude, good thought of the day i tell 'thee!

My random fact of the day boils down to - Ants don't sleep.

And ants die of exhaustion within 3 months, too.