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notoriousdoc
05-01-2005, 06:45 AM
Is it me or is the rift between the rich and the poor widening? Where the poor stay poor, the rich get richer. Has it always been this way and just eluded me?
Also, is this also true of the US?

notoriousdoc
05-01-2005, 07:05 AM
well, it's widening here. The poor are crippled by unfair taxes, the ones who try to make a "living" that is. Over here there are a lot of wasters who screw the country by living off the state by breeding retards and getting money for it.
Bastards...

notoriousdoc
05-01-2005, 07:14 AM
Yeah, like teenage moms (just loathe them, but hell, tain't necessarily their fault :o ).

Tax cuts should be aimed at the poor & the middle classes, not the well-heeled.

So who are you voting for? Howard or Blair? If I were a Brit, I'd go for the Lib Dems & leave them a chance, for once...

Maria

I'd vote for the Lib Dems if they had a chance, so it's labour :D :D

yeah, I don't like chavs they leech off of everyone

0r4ng3
05-01-2005, 08:30 AM
Is it me or is the rift between the rich and the poor widening? Where the poor stay poor, the rich get richer. Has it always been this way and just eluded me?
Also, is this also true of the US?
Yep, it's happening here, just at a slower rate.

Noodles is gay
05-01-2005, 10:40 AM
well, it's widening here. The ‘poor’ are crippled by unfair taxes, the ones who try to make a "living" that is. Over here there are a lot of wasters who screw the country by living off the state by breeding retards and getting money for it.
Bastards...

I completely disagree.

Anyone can make a living here, and the tax on the ‘poor’ is relatively low – it only get excessive once one starts earning more than a certain amount. Hence, the ‘poor’ can get jobs and help themselves if they really worked at it.

A majority of 'wasters' are ‘poor’ and leach off the state, whereas the rich have worked damn hard for their money and deserve every penny. True there are many exceptions to this but on the whole it's actually pretty accurate. Also the Lib dems would 'cripple [the rich] by unfair taxes'! That would be extremely unreasonable on hardworking businessmen/women, who thoroughly deserve their money and shouldn't have to pay to support the masses.

‘Poor’ people get things paid for them – for instance the topup fees for universities, they get free housing, free schooling, benefits (thinking particularly of the EMA system, here), allowances – so really it’s the rich who are being screwed for every penny they own. A good example of this in action is parents who perhaps scrimp and save to send their brood to a independent school (due to the appalling education provided in many comprehensives) and give them a chance in life, but they still have to pay taxes for the regular schools. And pay for kids who just do not want to learn.

In fact, I think the problem is the state of our schools, and the nature of many of the kids who attend them. The education system sucks, the kids are disruptive and don’t want to learn and so it’s just a ridiculous waste of money. Bringing back grammar schools would definitely help the failing system (also I’m sure that making Latin compulsory to age 16 would help too! :D Well it would! It’d help kids understand basic English and enable them to pass the ridiculously easy English GCSE exam).

Hummmm…..I don’t know (nor care) how much sense that makes, but I feel rather strongly about all this (damn, I should be PM rather than that duplicitous, deceiving, deviant Blair…) and I can see all the shortcoming of the Labour government. Pkus I’ve gone for the entire day without uttering a single word aloud! Incredible :p



yeah, I don't like chavs they leech off of everyone

Doesn't everyone dislike them? They breed like rabbits!

It's widely acknowledged that Tories could practically abolish chavs :p


NB: I would vote Conservative.

RXP
05-01-2005, 10:47 AM
Tax cuts should be aimed at the poor & the middle classes, not the well-heeled.



Tax cuts shoudl be soley aimed at the working class and lower middle classes. Not middle middle and upper middle. Fuck them. They get enough money thsoe fucking cunts who think that getting taxed is a tax on success and hardwork.

Noodles is gay
05-01-2005, 10:48 AM
^ the 'working class and lower middle classes' are the only ones who get tax cuts at the moment.


getting taxed is a tax on success and hardwork.

It is.

RXP
05-01-2005, 10:56 AM
^ the 'working class and lower middle classes' are the only ones who get tax cuts at the moment.


Further tax cuts I mean. It's obvious what I meant.A more progressive system. a 50% high band the Lib Dems are promising sounds awesome. Further rich people exploit taxes by wisely constituting trusts for their assets which are tax exempt. They have the lawyers who can find little holes in the system to exploit.

Further NI contributions are a working class tax so is VAT. They hit the working class hardest.

I guess it is a tax on success but not on hard work.

Noodles is gay
05-01-2005, 11:06 AM
only the very rich can do that (trusts) though, plus it's tax evasion - the moderately rich just have to put up with the ridiculous taxes. I think the lib dems tax idea is absurd - some people work damn hard for their money and they should be allowed to keep it.

If the libs got elected (IF! :p) i think that their higher rate of tax would just discourage some people from bothering to work as hard, which is obviously bad; I mean, why should they work their ass off just to give a higher percentage of their earnings to the government? People will soon tag on and work less so that their earnings fall just below the new rate thingy. It could be catastrophe to our economy.

RXP
05-01-2005, 11:14 AM
That argument is so stupid. People will work less harder.

People are gready fuckers. They still get paid more even when they're being taxed more because it's only taxed on every penny over a certain threshold. So even if they make an extra £20,000 not £30,000 you think they're not gonna bother? If you really think that you are deluded or just a middle class appologist.

It's fucking middle class propaganda. Just like the stupid inflationary arguments against the minimum wage.

People work hard for that money? Please. No one needs that kinda money and from a utalatrian perspective everyone would be better off with better public services. But I forgot rich people don't care about others. Just lining their own pockets. I say the tax band should be 60% on all income over £100,000 then lower the tax bands for the working class.

And yes I was talking of hte very rich. It's not illegal tax evasion, however.

RXP
05-01-2005, 11:17 AM
Also you do realise yeah that the bands are on incomes OVER that threshold.

So if the 50% tax is on incomes over £100,000 you will only get tax on the income above the £100,000 you earn. So if you earn £120,000 you will get a 50% tax on the 20,000.

Any argument of insentive is just stupid. People don't usually realise that it's got nothing to do witht he actual tax band your in becuase of your total wage. Even though they are getting tax more they are still taking more money home

wheelchairman
05-01-2005, 11:18 AM
Businessmen and women are suddenly the hardest working people in society?

Jesus, you've obviously never done factory work. I'll stick to accounting/marketing, thank you very fucking much.

Profit, is derived directly from the work of the people who produced the product. That is basic math.

RXP
05-01-2005, 11:23 AM
Surplus value!

Chris
05-01-2005, 11:25 AM
Damn this materialistic society we live in.

I'm inclined to agree with wcm and rxp although ironically, i'll probably end up losing a lot through tax. Perhaps this is where less knee jerk reactions and judgemental swipes are needed. A better society for all rather than the few, regardless of the sacrifices.

Noodles is gay
05-01-2005, 11:28 AM
WCM: Well yeah; self employed people work damn hard - they are often subject to unlimited liability so must work very hard. (PLCs and LTDs aren't so much at risk though, i guess.) Well considering the mechanization taking place in a lot of factories nowadays, factory workers often don't work as hard. They go into work, they have set shifts, they don't need to work long hours, they're drones and needn't worry about the business in general (to an extent anyway)


RXP:Yes i know that people will take home a higher wage in the higher tax band, BUT they also have to pay more tax and work a little bit harder. People will think 'sod it', and won't deem it worth staying at work for that little bit longer just to earn (to take your example) another £30,000, especially if they know that £10,000 of that will go straight to the government. Basically the amount of extra money they earn won't be worth working for so people won't push themselves and take on additional stress to do it.

RXP
05-01-2005, 11:32 AM
No they won't! Who's gonna turn down £20k because the tax man takes some of it? ALso these people are fuckin sallaried employees. They get paid no matter how hard they work. It's resulsts based for them. It isn't how* many hours they work.

And.... let me guess you do business studies too! What has unlimited liability got to do with tax bands? If a self employeed person earns over a £100,000 he should get taxed 50% too. Fuck his unlimited liabilty.

wheelchairman
05-01-2005, 11:33 AM
WCM: Well yeah; self employed people work damn hard - they are often subject to unlimited liability so must work very hard. (PLCs and LTDs aren't so much at risk though, i guess.) Well considering the mechanization taking place in a lot of factories nowadays, factory workers often don't work as hard. They go into work, they have set shifts, they don't need to work long hours, they're drones and needn't worry about the business in general (to an extent anyway)


RXP:Yes i know that people will take home a higher wage in the higher tax band, BUT they also have to pay more tax and work a little bit harder. People will think 'sod it', and won't deem it worth staying at work for that little bit longer just to earn (to take your example) another £30,000, especially if they know that £10,000 of that will go straight to the government. Basically the amount of extra money they earn won't be worth working for so people won't push themselves and take on additional stress to do it.

Fuck, you'll never find a bigger friend of the self-employed and small business owners, however tax-cuts are never in their direction. Large Business benefits most, Large Business is what the government works for.

And you obviously don't know much about factory labor do you? I've spent some time doing factory labor, which is not enjoyable at all. The people I've met, they don't worry about the business. But they have to worry about their families material well-being, their rent, etc. Something that the factory owner and CEO don't need to worry about as much.

The people who work the hardest in our society, are those who get the least back. The people who work the least tend to be CEOs and Pimps. And I mean, a pimp needs to run sometimes.

RXP- Surplus value, you got it bro.

Chris-Amen.

RXP
05-01-2005, 11:33 AM
A better society for all rather than the few, regardless of the sacrifices.

Could have been said by Bentham himself.

Noodles is gay
05-01-2005, 11:36 AM
RXP: Well i was thinking mainly of small business owners to be honest - salaried employees don't give a damn, of course they'll happily take that extra £20,000 and not care about the £10,000 but the business owners who put in all the overtime, and stress etc will be the ones who feel it and who actually care.


no, the unlimited libility was why he has to work so damn hard - if he fails it's him that's gonna suffer.

RXP
05-01-2005, 11:51 AM
Yeah of course it's a risk but it's a huge reward. You take the risk you get the reward. You fuck, you pay. But tax has nothing to do with that.

Further I've worked in 3 places my life. First was a law firm doing shitty work experience. second was a factory, third was a call centre.

You know what was the same about all 3? Everyone there works as hard as everyone else. the lawyers work as hard as the factory worker and call centre workers. The only diffference is when you work in a factory you really feel it when you get home. but then again once you get used to it your muscles would adapt.

But everyone works hard as everyone else regardless of pay. Factory workers and lawyers alike. And that's form my own personal experience. One of the lawyers told me: "to make it in this business you gotta do 60+ hours a week". One of the factory guys worked 4-5 hours after he got off an 8 hour shift so did the same.

notoriousdoc
05-01-2005, 02:34 PM
firstly, my parent's have about 1/3 of their income taken away in tax, and we're relatively poor, which means they then have less to spend on food/clothing etc. which they're then taxed on again through VAT. My father worked hard to get where he is today as well, he came from a working class background and was called "dumb" because he is dyslexic. He fought to get a job in BT who he has worked for twenty-five years, and for what? To be kept down by middle management because they were ageist. The stress this caused gave made him clinically depressed and affected everyone around him. We live in a smallish house with a mortgage which makes them pay more than they have to (with no way out). I, myself have a limited education as we cannot afford to live near a nice school and the only reason I will be able to go to university is because I am an above average student. My parents are doomed to a life of mediocracy because of the last conservative government ,who only helped the rich, screwed them with no help and below average education.


In fact, I think the problem is the state of our schools, and the nature of many of the kids who attend them. The education system sucks, the kids are disruptive and don’t want to learn and so it’s just a ridiculous waste of money. Bringing back grammar schools would definitely help the failing system (also I’m sure that making Latin compulsory to age 16 would help too! Well it would! It’d help kids understand basic English and enable them to pass the ridiculously easy English GCSE exam).

this is very true, the education system sucks, look where we're going, a life of debt (if your parents aren't rich)


People work hard for that money? Please. No one needs that kinda money and from a utalatrian perspective everyone would be better off with better public services. But I forgot rich people don't care about others. Just lining their own pockets. I say the tax band should be 60% on all income over £100,000 then lower the tax bands for the working class.

I agree the rich usually just don't give a toss about anybody but themselves, just look at America, the rich are rich and the poor are poor, if tax remains the same we may slip into the way America is run;through insurance and very small amounts of tax

"I'm inclined to agree with wcm and rxp although ironically, i'll probably end up losing a lot through tax. Perhaps this is where less knee jerk reactions and judgemental swipes are needed. A better society for all rather than the few, regardless of the sacrifices."

larger tax on rich; lower tax on poor = equal society similer to the better ideas of communism


fair tax rates for everyone will benifit the rich as well as everyone else;better services and therefore no more private hospitals to pay for, better education (no more tuition fees at private schools) and many more widespread services

"Yes i know that people will take home a higher wage in the higher tax band, BUT they also have to pay more tax and work a little bit harder. People will think 'sod it', and won't deem it worth staying at work for that little bit longer just to earn (to take your example) another £30,000, especially if they know that £10,000 of that will go straight to the government. Basically the amount of extra money they earn won't be worth working for so people won't push themselves and take on additional stress to do it."

that "extra £10,000" will improve services and everything, but I do agree, maybe 50% is too much.


I think VAT should be abolished and replaced by a earning based single tax




TAX EARNING RINGS


-£10000 - 10% total tax

£10000 - £25000 - 12.5% total tax

£25000 - £50000 - 17.5% total tax

£50000 - £100000 - 22.5% total tax

£100000 - £500000 - 30% total tax

£500000- - 45% total tax

Betty
05-01-2005, 09:46 PM
RXP, I have not had the same experiences of you in terms of observing this "hard work".

I'm not even going get into taxing the rich, the poor, and their dogs. I've said where I stand, and I don't even know why this argument is being had again.

All I know is my mom showed me her pay cheque and 40% went to taxes. That's a LOT. And she's sure as hell not making over $100 000.

notoriousdoc
05-02-2005, 01:28 AM
RXP, I have not had the same experiences of you in terms of observing this "hard work".

I'm not even going get into taxing the rich, the poor, and their dogs. I've said where I stand, and I don't even know why this argument is being had again.

All I know is my mom showed me her pay cheque and 40% went to taxes. That's a LOT. And she's sure as hell not making over $100 000.

And it's worse over here... :(

ermdevi@tion
05-02-2005, 02:20 AM
All I know is my mom showed me her pay cheque and 40% went to taxes. That's a LOT. And she's sure as hell not making over $100 000.

Are you counting private pensions, insurance contributions etc as "tax". Because so far as I am aware, no income bracket is taxed that heavily in the USA.

To notoriousdoc: I wouldn't have said it was worse here in the UK. Labour take around 40p in each £1 in total tax - including national insurance (or Mr. Blair's stealth tax! :D )

I don't know how much you would know of politics in Scotland, but we have the Scottish Socialists up here who propse a 50% rate of income tax for earnings >£100,000. They would also abolish the council tax system and replace it with a local income tax, though quite different to the Lib Dem proposal I believe. And finally - minimum wage of £8 an hour for anyone over the age of sixteen - oooo yeah.

notoriousdoc
05-02-2005, 02:23 AM
Are you counting private pensions, insurance contributions etc as "tax". Because so far as I am aware, no income bracket is taxed that heavily in the USA.

To notoriousdoc: I wouldn't have said it was worse here in the UK. Labour take around 40p in each £1 in total tax - including national insurance (or Mr. Blair's stealth tax! :D )

I don't know how much you would know of politics in Scotland, but we have the Scottish Socialists up here who propse a 50% rate of income tax for earnings >£100,000. They would also abolish the council tax system and replace it with a local income tax, though quite different to the Lib Dem proposal I believe. And finally - minimum wage of £8 an hour for anyone over the age of sixteen - oooo yeah.

I like that minimum wage! :D :D :D

RXP
05-02-2005, 03:17 AM
RXP, I have not had the same experiences of you in terms of observing this "hard work".

I'm not even going get into taxing the rich, the poor, and their dogs. I've said where I stand, and I don't even know why this argument is being had again.

All I know is my mom showed me her pay cheque and 40% went to taxes. That's a LOT. And she's sure as hell not making over $100 000.

Hard work? THe poorer people work just as hard as rich people! GIve me some examples. It's got nothing to do wtih hard work and everything to do with the talent and opportunities you had. When I'm earning as much as your mum I'd be happy to give 40% to the tax man because I know I have ass loads of money and that its' better for the greater good.

And what are you including in that 40%? Surely not only income tax.

Take this example. A girl I know at work, Rach. Works her ASS off. She's on £5.50 an hour and the tax man took £175 out of her £700ish pay. That's just unfair. I don't really care of people like your mum get taxed that high becuase they sitll have more disposable income than the Rach's of the world. She wokrs her ass off. She's fucking amazing at her job and gives the firm much more marginal utility than they're paying her.

So really this might sound harsh but cry me a river. The poor get taxed so heavily for what they earn and it shouldn't be like that. So your mum earning so much COMBINED with your dad's earnings (I know he don't get a lot) and your complaining about tax? Try living in a £10,000/yr retail workers shoes.

Noodles is gay
05-02-2005, 03:44 AM
Hard work? THe poorer people work just as hard as rich people! GIve me some examples. It's got nothing to do wtih hard work and everything to do with the talent and opportunities you had. When I'm earning as much as your mum I'd be happy to give 40% to the tax man because I know I have ass loads of money and that its' better for the greater good.

I have to agree with Betty here - people don't give a shit as long as they get paid they're happy. I can't believe that the factory bloke you were talking about would put in all those extra hours. And if he did, then he's either really dumb or a very, very, unique person. The vast majority of people don't give a shit.

You want examples:

My dad owns a business; the blokes who work for him are constantly taking as much as possible from him. If they're out on a job they often leave early, take extended lunch breaks, steal materials, overcharge for the petrol in their van etc They do not give a fuck, and try to get away with doing as little as physically possible.

notoriousdoc
05-02-2005, 03:53 AM
I have to agree with Betty here - people don't give a shit as long as they get paid they're happy. I can't believe that the factory bloke you were talking about would put in all those extra hours. And if he did, then he's either really dumb or a very, very, unique person. The vast majority of people don't give a shit.

You want examples:

My dad owns a business; the blokes who work for him are constantly taking as much as possible from him. If they're out on a job they often leave early, take extended lunch breaks, steal materials, overcharge for the petrol in their van etc They do not give a fuck, and try to get away with doing as little as physically possible.

some people dont give a fuck, others work really hard. I think the people who work really hard are in larger numbers than those who dont give a fuck. And then the people in the middle outnumber both of those.

http://www.buildersneeds.com/newimages/builder.jpg

What type of buisness does your dad own? Is it construction?

PS I didn't sleep that night, I was sat there for 3 1/2 hours thinking.

Noodles is gay
05-02-2005, 03:55 AM
heheh - nearly! Electricians!

I managed to sleep last night actually - the godfather was on and was awesome :cool:

notoriousdoc
05-02-2005, 04:00 AM
heheh - nearly! Electricians!

I managed to sleep last night actually - the godfather was on and was awesome :cool:

no, I mean when we were talking about Athenian demoracy. I sat and thought and when I next looked at the clock is was 3 in the morning

Does your dad do showers? Mine isn't working... :(

Noodles is gay
05-02-2005, 04:04 AM
no, I mean when we were talking about Athenian demoracy. I sat and thought and when I next looked at the clock is was 3 in the morning

Does your dad do showers? Mine isn't working... :(

Oh, wicked! :D That's what i like to hear! I've spent many a night dreaming about classics.

Before i went to bed (3am isn't later by the way!) I was reading a book on ancient Greek grammar, it was really good. Oh yeah, i have to change my sig...

You probably need a plumber. Or if it's the drain that's not draining then you have to get down on youe knees and fish all the gross shit outta there. lovely!

notoriousdoc
05-02-2005, 04:07 AM
Oh, wicked! :D That's what i like to hear! I've spent many a night dreaming about classics.

Before i went to bed (3am isn't later by the way!) I was reading a book on ancient Greek grammar, it was really good. Oh yeah, i have to change my sig...

You probably need a plumber. Or if it's the drain that's not draining then you have to get down on youe knees and fish all the gross shit outta there. lovely!

No, an electrician. It isn't attached to the mains you see. Anyway what was this thread about again? I seem to have lost the track.

Noodles is gay
05-02-2005, 04:16 AM
No, an electrician. It isn't attached to the mains you see. Anyway what was this thread about again? I seem to have lost the track.

oh.

I don't suppose it matters. :p

Later (i need breakfast!)

wheelchairman
05-02-2005, 07:02 AM
My dad owns a business; the blokes who work for him are constantly taking as much as possible from him. If they're out on a job they often leave early, take extended lunch breaks, steal materials, overcharge for the petrol in their van etc They do not give a fuck, and try to get away with doing as little as physically possible.
But how much profit do these workers generate? Almost all the profit that your dad pockets. He's getting off lightly.

RXP
05-02-2005, 07:17 AM
Fuck that. I take extra breaks and slack of from time to time but on the whole I work my ass off. Those workers can't be that bad if they are tell your dad to fire them and get someone else.

Geez.

Also wtf that factory guy had to support his family. 10k a year don't do that. He had to have that extra job. Fuck you for calling him stupid.

Go down to a factory one day and see the monotomous tasks and back breaking labour those guys do and you tell me your dad's job is harder. Jeez.

I've seen it from both ends. I used to be well off, middle class income and now I'm poor. So it's not like I'm a crazy socialist or something. I went to a private school and know all sorts of people.

Skate Rat 19
05-03-2005, 06:52 PM
Its very true middle class is becoming smaller every second

Betty
05-03-2005, 11:36 PM
Hard work? THe poorer people work just as hard as rich people! GIve me some examples. It's got nothing to do wtih hard work and everything to do with the talent and opportunities you had. When I'm earning as much as your mum I'd be happy to give 40% to the tax man because I know I have ass loads of money and that its' better for the greater good.

And what are you including in that 40%? Surely not only income tax.

Take this example. A girl I know at work, Rach. Works her ASS off. She's on £5.50 an hour and the tax man took £175 out of her £700ish pay. That's just unfair. I don't really care of people like your mum get taxed that high becuase they sitll have more disposable income than the Rach's of the world. She wokrs her ass off. She's fucking amazing at her job and gives the firm much more marginal utility than they're paying her.

So really this might sound harsh but cry me a river. The poor get taxed so heavily for what they earn and it shouldn't be like that. So your mum earning so much COMBINED with your dad's earnings (I know he don't get a lot) and your complaining about tax? Try living in a £10,000/yr retail workers shoes.

Examples? I have seen it over and over in my own personal experience (which is small, mind you). At my job, I'd say I worked harder than at least 90% of the other staff (this number could be higher, but I'm being lenient) and made a measly $7.15/hour (raise of 15 cents after 3 years of work... union rant anyone? Hate them too). Maybe you just think people work hard based on your personal definition of hard work. If you think you work hard and they work as hard as you, therefore they work hard. Mine is probably higher. But then maybe I have crazy irrational goals. But even if they are crazy, my overachieving SHOULD reap rewards regardless should it not? Also, both my parents in managerial positions deal with people who, as in Jen's example, take as much as possible and give the least back. Not everybody, but a LOT of people. Anyway, I am sticking by my opinion on this. (And there is more that goes into it... education... LIFE CHOICES (not just opportunities, CHOICES) ... etc. but I've said it a million times before)

And yeah, I was wrong, I should have said 40% was off her paycheque. I'd say the tax portion was probably ~ 2/3 of that... so... probably close to 30%... which is still a LOT. And this doesn't factor in the 15% we pay on all purchases for tax, property tax, etc. And screw that, my family does not make "ass loads". So, if you ever get a decent job (which I assume you will), I would like you to donate all of your earnings over and above whatever amount (10 000 English symbol for money?) to the poor. K? I'll call you on that if I still know you.

And for people like Rach, I agree. I think EVERYBODY should have lower taxes. Rich and poor. With the appropriate cut off line for no tax. So then she'd make her full wage. And be free to spend it how she so desired. Also, I'm not sure what it's like there, but I don't get too screwed over by taxes. I lost maybe $800 to taxes for working but then at the end of the year got a cheque for $1100 since I'm of such low income. So it evened itself out, and does so for most of very low income.

My argument is simply for the middle class. My family is very middle class and gets taxed to hell. But I don't think the rich should have to overcompensate, there should just be less taxes and so government money would be spent differently. For example, if there is an election here, do I want 250 million tax dollars to pay for that? No. They spend tons of wasted money on campaigning, and they do because they can.




I've seen it from both ends. I used to be well off, middle class income and now I'm poor.

What was it about crying a river? You don't sound so poor with all your computer gadgets and cellphone gadgets, etc, etc. Yeah, I know I shouldn't judge (mean Michelle!) But it doesn't sound as if you're suffering anyway. Or maybe it just goes to show that poor people (single) live decent lives. Hell, I'm poor with an income of less than $10 000/year.


some people dont give a fuck, others work really hard. I think the people who work really hard are in larger numbers than those who dont give a fuck.

I'm tempted to disagree. At least from my personal experience. And this applies to more menial labour, not serious careers.

Jesus
05-04-2005, 02:52 AM
And yeah, I was wrong, I should have said 40% was off her paycheque. I'd say the tax portion was probably ~ 2/3 of that... so... probably close to 30%... which is still a LOT. And this doesn't factor in the 15% we pay on all purchases for tax, property tax, etc.

Taxes on purchases or VAT, should be abolished as much as possible because they are highly regressive and hurt lower incomes (it's sad to see liberals and conservatives striving for a vat based tax system). A fair income taxation system is better, one based on progressive tax scales with adaptation via index/inflation numbers of basic goods and services minus luxery products. This is something RXP will normally agree with and you probably too (or maybe not).




And for people like Rach, I agree. I think EVERYBODY should have lower taxes. Rich and poor. With the appropriate cut off line for no tax.

Disagreed for obvious leftist reasons, taxes are necessary for not only creating equal opportunities, but also equal conditions something which a lot of people forget. The government also has a higher buying power than anyone alone has and if it would (with the right people in the government) it could use it position to get low market prices for a lot of things (basic monopsony).
Since I still have RXP in my head I'll use some "law" examples, in essence everyone has the right (opportunity) to go to court or get a patent, but due to the high cost of it all some people will just not go to court or won't be able to get a patent (unequal condition). This can be applied to hospitals etc. where taxes can create a low cost to go to the hospital and the monopsony position could be used to get low prices for drugs.





For example, if there is an election here, do I want 250 million tax dollars to pay for that? No. They spend tons of wasted money on campaigning, and they do because they can.

This has not much to do with the general picture of taxes because it's also only 7 dollars a canadian (taxes will always be waisted on stuff, this however doesn't change the fact that in a lot of cases they are appropriatly allocated). But I agree that party financing should be regulated because I don't want too much private money going into it.

Dexter_Holland
05-04-2005, 04:43 PM
the gap is widening here, (netherlands) but it doenst affect me :>. im 15 and i got a job, 75 euro pocket money a month (about 100 dollars i guess), but when you walk on the street in the bigger cities, you see too much homeless people and poor neighbourhoods and stuff.

Betty
05-04-2005, 05:32 PM
Ken:

I could agree with abolishing the "VAT" taxing but not if the point were simply to redistribute it to the rich to take care of. That's also a leftist argument. The right one would be that this way is fair. Everybody pays for what they buy. If you don't buy it, you don't need to pay it. Also, there is a semi-fairness in that necessities (regular food, diapers, etc) are not taxed, only junk food and prepared food. And then things like alcohol and cigarettes which are totally unecessary can be taxed a lot (which is good). Things like clothes however are taxes, and that would be less fair for the low income folks.

I actually think your "law" example is poor. Even if in a dream world everybody had the right to get a patent, patents are fucking expensive. Real ones would cost probably tens of millions. Or at least millions. That can't possibly be a right. If you have a really good idea, you'd have to pitch it to potential investors. There are better examples however (healthcare, education - up to highschool in my opinion, etc.) but the biggest problem with these things are that they can be easily abused and lots of tax money wasted.

I agree the election example isn't really broadly applicable, but it was an example. There are lots like it. I also don't like a lot of the administration in the government, I think it's a waste. Like, funding for "reports" worth millions of dollars that draw useless conclusions. And give the people who conducted them huge salaries. Some social programs that are able to milk money I also don't agree with. The liberal candidate here (our PM) proposed national daycare - I don't support that. If it were kept to the basics (healthcare, but with privatization), education, some millitary (ideally for peacekeeping, but you gotta do what you gotta do), police, etc. that would be acceptable. Perhaps not ideal, but there is just a lot of waste, and I know it.

Anyway, good comments, sometimes I think you're trying to be an ass when you always respond to me, but this time I felt like it was just a friendly debate, so good!

notoriousdoc
05-05-2005, 12:20 AM
Ken:

I could agree with abolishing the "VAT" taxing but not if the point were simply to redistribute it to the rich to take care of. That's also a leftist argument. The right one would be that this way is fair. Everybody pays for what they buy. If you don't buy it, you don't need to pay it. Also, there is a semi-fairness in that necessities (regular food, diapers, etc) are not taxed, only junk food and prepared food. And then things like alcohol and cigarettes which are totally unecessary can be taxed a lot (which is good). Things like clothes however are taxes, and that would be less fair for the low income folks.


They could also legalise marijuana and tax that a lot, and it would damage the NHS less as it is scientifically proven that marijuana is LESS harmful than tobacco. Maybe VAT on clothes that are designer should be increased and normal clothes have less, as their is no reason to have designer shit unless you're a chav or are trying to look flash.

Betty
05-05-2005, 10:18 PM
The marijuana thing is definitely agreed.

The clothes thing I think would be too difficult to enforce.