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sKratch
11-03-2004, 04:45 PM
I was talking to my girlfriend and we've always joked about moving to Canada or something if the situation gets bad here, but I realized that I would rather stay and do whatever I could to make things better. She said she associates herself more with her parents' background (British) even though she was born and raised in the United States and therefore feels no responsibility to put effort into improving a bad situation in the US. Personally, I think it's my duty as an American to stick it out and voice my opinion while doing everything I can to make things better. What do you think? Do you feel no guilt in saying "shit sucks, oh well I'm outta here"? I think that regardless of how futile my efforts might be, I have a responsibility to protest and make myself heard rather than running off on my country, so to speak. Obviously, I didn't chose to be born here. Both of my parents are from Poland and moved here in the late 70's or early 80's, so I very well could have ended up living in Poland had they not moved. Regardless, I grew up here and benefited from the American life. Therefore I feel I have a duty to fix what I see as wrong. I don't know, maybe I'm optimistic and naive, but I just think that moving to Canada and leaving America's problems behind is a step in the wrong direction.

BREAK
11-03-2004, 05:05 PM
Fine then, stay here. Enjoy getting drafted & further terrorist attacks on American soil.

sKratch
11-03-2004, 05:58 PM
Meh, I doubt there'll be a draft. Won't go if there is.

Lars
11-03-2004, 06:03 PM
I love the perks if you don't keep the selective service records up to date.

Betty
11-03-2004, 08:54 PM
"Regardless, I grew up here and benefited from the American life"

In a way you have a point... but in a way I have mixed feelings. Like, America is the way it is today because of all of the past leaders. And if you totally want to revamp the country, then it wouldn't be the same and those benefits you speak of wouldn't be the same either. So I guess I think that if you want to change a few things about the country, then yes, you should stick it out and work at it. But if you hate everything about the US and want to change everything, then maybe you should move because you don't belong there. Make sense?

sKratch
11-03-2004, 09:01 PM
Yeah you do have a point I suppose. I guess if things went totally to shit I'd leave eventually.

SicN Twisted
11-04-2004, 01:56 AM
The reasons you mention are the reasons I haven't left this country already. I feel that there are so few real progressives in this country, the ones who are have a duty to stay and have as much of an effect as they possibly can. In responce to you, Betty, I do think that complete revolutionary change would make us lose the standard of living we have. Canada is a much better society and has much less poverty then the United States. So is Holland, Switzerland, and several other countries, and they're not all about corperate welfare and international terrorism, which I'd have to say are the two beacons that make my country stick out.

sKratch
11-04-2004, 07:58 AM
Looks like we pretty much agree, sic. I see a problem, however, and it's that many changes--such as real health care and social service reforms--are unlikely to occur. I'm not trying to sound like a revolutionist or something, but some changes are only plausible of they occur drastically. However, with such a close election, if the voter turnout represents the country's alignment as a whole, there is obviously widespread support for Bush's policies. In other words, there are too many people who disagree with a movement toward the welfare state and other quasi-socialist reforms, as well as ending our foreign police dutes etc. I guess Bush just has to completely fuck everything up first, although I am sure there are people who will stand behind him no matter what.

wheelchairman
11-04-2004, 08:04 AM
Personally I do believe that if you tried to reform the US into a socialist-like economy, you would completely destroy the economy. That's why it would take revolutionary change.

Betty- The people in the US who are completely against what the US stands for, they are not just some flukes you know, they are a product of their environment. If this number were to grow because the environment these people live in, grows, then you would be creating the foundation for a large revolutionary movement. However, quite on the other hand, if a government were able to satisfy the needs of the people well enough, this would not be a problem. It's just, comments like these annoy me, despite the fact that I don't live in the US currently, because this is the second time you've suggested people to leave the country. But I would on the other hand, tell these people to get much more active into whatever political party they support.

sKratch
11-04-2004, 10:23 AM
Personally I do believe that if you tried to reform the US into a socialist-like economy, you would completely destroy the economy. That's why it would take revolutionary change.
Right, I was going to mention that about the economy probably falling apart otherwise but I got caught up in digressions. I'm not saying I'm necessarily for a revolution, but it's just an observation that it's probably the only way a radical change like that could occur. Talk to me after a few more conservative presidents and maybe I'll have a different mindset.

wheelchairman
11-04-2004, 10:36 AM
Well it's a historical tendency that the shittier an economy gets, the more revolutionary a people gets. So I'll just be waiting here for y'all to catch up.

Betty
11-04-2004, 03:32 PM
In response to various comments:

Yeah, it makes sense that if enough people got fed up enough with how their country is run, then there could be some sort of revolution. And that it's not necessarily only a few whackos out there. But as was mentionned, there is still quite a bit of support for Bush, and a lot of the democrats probably don't want a huge change, just somebody a little nicer on foreign policy than Bush and a little more cushy on the lower/middle class benefits.

I realize I actually have suggested leaving the country TWICE now, but really, if you're a true socialist at heart, then maybe you should move to a socialist country. Because a lot of the US's strong economy is based on capitalism. I agree there are definitely improvements to be made, especially in eliminating a lot of the true poverty and fixing up the ghettos, education, etc. But you don't necessarily have to go total socialist for these changes.

Also, I guess it would be a fair ambition to want the US to be a bit more like Canada or similar countries... kinda a happy medium... sometimes I find myself wanting Canada to be a bit more like the US, not entirely, but in some ways. So, if you desire changes that are still in the spirit of America, then I say go for it, good luck, and all the more power to you.

Also, regarding Canada, I think a big reason we are where we are today is because of the US, and in a lot of ways we are getting a free ride.

Betty
11-04-2004, 03:43 PM
Also, I just thought I would add...

I hope you guys aren't totally fed up with all my crazed right wing ideas. But really, what fun would it be if everybody agreed?

I am totally open minded to hearing other points of view though, well mostly the ones that have good arguments, etc. I also like learning more about historical things since I have only been getting into politics/history in the past couple of years and have SO much left to learn. I'm a science student and spend most of my efforts on that. So if I say something that's wrong, feel free to correct me so that I know. It's good for me to hear all sorts of viewpoints in order to get the best well-rounded and informed opinion. Although, we may never see eye to eye on the fundamentals.

I guess I just hope that there are no hard feelings... today I was discussing with my boyfriend about how conservatives/republicans/right wingers will understand where the left is coming from but simply not agree with them, whereas the left will sometimes think that the right are just idiots and cruel heartless people. So, I guess I just hope that is not the case...

So yeah, that's that.

SicN Twisted
11-04-2004, 03:44 PM
I'm not a socialist, but throughout history, communists and socialists have been more about making their countries socialist, not moving to socialist countries. I would like the US to be more like Europe. Europe is far from my ideal society, but it's better to strive for more realistic goals.

wheelchairman
11-04-2004, 03:59 PM
I always had a feeling you were right wing, never did truly believe it though (since you would be the only eloquent right-winger on here.)

Moving to a socialist country, I believe is difficult. Although I've been to Cuba and it would be a wonderful home I think. However, I am an active of member of *the* party in Denmark. and if I move back to the states I probably will be an active member of a party there.

As far as support for the republicans go, the nation is almost evenly polarized at 50/50. And there are republicans who lean more to the democrats (who too would want a nicer foreign policy) while there are democrats who lean more to the right (who want bush with a nicer foreign policy) things like that. However I do think there is large discontentment.

And I think you have a misconception on the left about the right. My best friend here is a Bush supporter (that is unbelievably fuckin' rare in Denmark). I have nothing but respect for the right. I have no respect for the right on this board who have difficulties arguing coherently. (that of course is not referring to you.)

SicN Twisted
11-04-2004, 04:09 PM
There aren't any true socialist countries to move to. Cuba is a shitty island that stricken by an embargo that prevents it from providing adequate living to it's people no matter what system of government it has? What other socialist countries? I guess some shitty African countries. The Netherlands is the closest thing to a true socialist welfare state that exists in the world. I've been there several times and would be happy to move there, although not only for it's socialist politics... :)

wheelchairman
11-04-2004, 04:18 PM
What do you mean Cuba can't provide for it's citizens? I believe it has one of the highest standards of living in Latin America. It really can't do better than it's geo-historical conditions can allow it. Certainly not with an embargo.

I'd be tempted to say the Democratic People's Republic of North Korea. But all I ever here is propaganda from the anti-communists or just the obviously awful crap from the Juchists.

Nepal is in the midst of revolution, where the communists now have 70% of the country. I find this to be absolutely fascinating. It's been 7 long years. Certain parts of India have been in the hands of Communists for a while. I believe the Golden Path revolution in Peru is taking a major beating. But it's an old revolution. The phillipines has had a peoples war for 35 years as well.

Pridnestrovie claims to be communist, but it has worse difficulties than Cuba. Laos/Vietnam both would be interesting places to visit. Although Laos is severely under developed. The Communists have been voted to power in Mongolia. Mongolia too is a beautiful country.

Moldava too has the communists in power, but they are more like the European social democrats.

Venezuela, would be truly fascinating as well. Hugo Chavez has been doing great things in the name of socialism. Let's hope things are as succesful for Uruguay, although that's not as left wing.

There are communists who would claim that China is still a socialist nation. But I've been there and I certainly wouldn't make that distinction, ever.

The Ba'athists in the middle east claim to run on an arab form of socialism. But socialism is scientific, so to me there is no 'arab traditional form'. But I don't know enough about it to judge yet.

I believe that's all of them. I'm afraid I don't know much about African politics though.

Betty
11-04-2004, 04:56 PM
I always had a feeling you were right wing, never did truly believe it though (since you would be the only eloquent right-winger on here.)

Yeah, it's pretty lonely and discouraging. Two of the groups of people that I am surrounded with (the "punk" and music in general crowd and university people) are almost entirely left, and I definitely feel like I don't belong, although I love both music and school. Apparently I'm pretty "soft" though... like, with you guys I will definitely argue right, but with the right-wingers I know, I will normally argue left a little.

But when I say that the left say the right are idiots... I can't help but feel that way when I hear the comments around me. Like, regarding the election so many comments were "I can't believe that these people don't see what Bush is doing, they are fucking idiots, etc, etc." I feel that I see what is going on, and actually see beyond that and believe something different. And like, the democrats will talk about "voter intimidation" but I would be WAY more scared to say I was pro-Bush than pro-Kerry based on the kind of reaction it receives. But I suppose not everyone is like that.

I think I may have misconceptions about the whole moving to a socialist country thing. I'm not very worldly, obviously. Because when I think socialist country, I just imagine a bunch of European countries. But when you say socialist country, you think hardcore total socialist.

wheelchairman
11-04-2004, 05:01 PM
Yes well socialism is defined as the stage before communism, when there is still a strong state regulating the economy from a market to socialist one.

Perhaps you meant European Social-Democracies.

sKratch
11-04-2004, 05:13 PM
Interestingly enough, a few days ago a friend of mine was arguing rather heatedly with a kid about politics. He was pointing out that the media is dumbing us down and conservative ideals inevitably lead us to war and so on and so forth. He then continued to explain that carrying out the argument was a sign of respect and it indexed that he saw him as a friend. It's nice to hear that I suppose. Better than people just screaming and hating people for their ideas.

Betty
11-04-2004, 05:17 PM
Maybe that is what I meant, yes.

I still look at things in a pretty broad way.

Izie
11-04-2004, 05:27 PM
The Netherlands is the closest thing to a true socialist welfare state that exists in the world. I've been there several times and would be happy to move there, although not only for it's socialist politics... :)


Existed, since the current Dutch government (conservatives+right wing liberals) is bringing it all down, the place is a mess right now...

SicN Twisted
11-04-2004, 06:29 PM
They're still Noam Chomsky compared to the governments of every single bordering country. That new thing of forcing immigrants to leave Holland within a certain amount of time is bullshit, though. The only reason it's so controversial in Holland is because it's happening in Holland. Policies like that are regular throughout most of Europe.

Mota Boy
11-05-2004, 07:08 AM
What do you mean Cuba can't provide for it's citizens? I believe it has one of the highest standards of living in Latin America. It really can't do better than it's geo-historical conditions can allow it. Certainly not with an embargo.


Do you really think that the embargo has any effect? The U.S. is the only country refusing to do business with the nation. The only thing I think Cuba is losing is money associated with tourism from America, other than that the embargo just provides a handy excuse for Castro.

sKratch
11-05-2004, 09:39 AM
Well I don't think you can say the embargo has no effect. The proximity of the United States as well as its international trading power would open up a useful market for Cuba. Realistically speaking, Cuba would probably be unable to export much to the US (look what happened with Jamaica), but the country would at least have valuable goods at its disposal for import. Cuba looked to the USSR for support because the US was attempting to cripple it.

wheelchairman
11-06-2004, 12:00 PM
Do you really think that the embargo has any effect? The U.S. is the only country refusing to do business with the nation. The only thing I think Cuba is losing is money associated with tourism from America, other than that the embargo just provides a handy excuse for Castro.

Are you serious? The world's largest importer of Coffee and Sugar and Tobacco is America. Yet you believe this embargo on a country less than 100K away will make a difference on the Cuban economy? You should do a little more research I think. Or else my drunkenness is impairing my memory, but I doubt it.