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SicN Twisted
11-04-2004, 02:54 PM
I'm constantly seeing comparissons of the United States to it's friendly neighbor to the north. What do you think of Canada's politics and culture? Too far to the left, too far to the right, too much descriminalized drug use, too cold?

wheelchairman
11-04-2004, 03:03 PM
I'll be the only person on here who says too far to the left.

I honestly don't know much about Canadian culture or politics though. Just that it's ridiculous that they have so much representatives of the Queen there.

The Cheshire Cat
11-04-2004, 03:05 PM
Yeah, I'm not sure why we have representatives of the queen either. Right now all they do is serve the same function as diplomats.

Jewel_Blue_Ibanez
11-04-2004, 03:44 PM
Well, I know the whole world doesn't hate Canada therefore Canada must be doing something right.

Mota Boy
11-04-2004, 04:11 PM
Well, I know the whole world doesn't hate Canada therefore Canada must be doing something right.


I think that's more of a reflection that Canada isn't doing anything than that it's doing the right things. Nobody hates Antartica either.


I think they're system of socialized medicine is flawed - it's my opinion that the best system is one of both privatized and public medicine. Other than that, their civil rights record seems good... though the fact that 75% of their industry is owned by the U.S. should probably be a reason to pause.

I don't know much about Canadian politics other than what I gather every now and then.

Betty
11-04-2004, 04:15 PM
Hmm... I've never really been in the U.S. for a long period of time, so sometimes it's hard to really know the differences.

For one, it's WAY TOO COLD.

In terms of politics, I believe it's too left... I totally don't understand why WCM would say so as well... am I totally not understanding where you're coming from?

A lot of people in Canada think they're far superior to Americans and that bothers me because we owe so much to them, and they're really not THAT different.

In terms of culture I think Canada can be pretty cool. We've got the Quebecers who are totally crazy (in a good way). And the northerners who are also pretty crazy. They love the outdoors, partying, and drinking lots of beer. That's how I grew up. Then there are the big cities like Toronto and Vancouver that are super multicultural. I think white people are in a minority there, maybe. It can be pretty neat but it's VERY busy and hectic. Also, I find that the cultures all tend to stick together and so even though everybody's living together, they're still sorta isolated. I kinda like the idea of one big happy family instead, but I guess people just don't work that way. Umm... I have no idea how different this can be from other cultures, it's pretty hard to explain it sometimes and you just have to experience it.

I think it's good that the drinking age here is 19 (and 18 in some provinces). Whenenver I go to the US I can't buy alcohol! Also, I believe that marijuana should be legalized, but I guess that's another issue.

Betty
11-04-2004, 04:16 PM
100% support of two tier healthcare. But people are scared of that.

SicN Twisted
11-04-2004, 05:31 PM
If Canada's too far to the left, then how come it has such a higher standard of living then the United States? Beliefs are beliefs, but the facts show that Canada has a wider middle class and much less poverty, higher literacy rate, lower infant mortality rate, incarceration rate, crime rate in every degree, etc... I don't know exactly what they're doing but it seems to be working pretty well, or at least better then it does in the states.

Jake
11-04-2004, 05:34 PM
Yahoo Canada!

SicN Twisted
11-04-2004, 05:38 PM
Jake, you're not allowed to reply to my topics.

Jewel_Blue_Ibanez
11-04-2004, 07:42 PM
I think that's more of a reflection that Canada isn't doing anything than that it's doing the right things. Nobody hates Antartica either.



I hate Antarctica. It's too damn cold. I'd much rather stay in Canada and live in my igloo.

greencows12
11-04-2004, 08:14 PM
Canada's warm during the summer, and I don't care for the politics, but you can drink there when you're 19 and I think some drugs are legal, also, I saw a big store with a big sign on it that said, "Condom Shack"....Down the street....."Hemp palace"......across the street from that?...."ho's haircut place" I'm not making that up, I think ho's haircut place in chinese, there's alot of chinese signs in canada now. But I don't care for the politics.:D

Betty
11-04-2004, 08:33 PM
If Canada's too far to the left, then how come it has such a higher standard of living then the United States? Beliefs are beliefs, but the facts show that Canada has a wider middle class and much less poverty, higher literacy rate, lower infant mortality rate, incarceration rate, crime rate in every degree, etc... I don't know exactly what they're doing but it seems to be working pretty well, or at least better then it does in the states.

Wow, I didn't know we were quite that awesome. I don't think I can give a satisfactory answer to that now, but suffice to say that there doesn't necessarily have to be a correlation between the two. (E.g. the US may have a higher standard of living than another country even though it is more right, etc.). So, I'll do my research and get back to you on that one, if I can find anything.

wheelchairman
11-04-2004, 10:28 PM
In terms of politics, I believe it's too left... I totally don't understand why WCM would say so as well... am I totally not understanding where you're coming from?

That would be lack of sleep, I meant right.

SicN Twisted
11-04-2004, 11:24 PM
There are correlations in some areas. Welfare states will obviously have less poverty then laissez-faire countries, because so many tax dollars are going to developing poor communities and giving poor people fatter checks. Of course, there won't be as much wealth either. I'm sure Canada has nowhere near as many billionaires, so in that degree, the United States is much richer then any other country in the world (except maybe Switzerland). And of course, the best quality private health care in the US is much better then the best healthcare in Canada, but if you compare the bottom 10 percents, Canada definately has it better off.

So I guess it all comes down to what your priorities are. If you believe in a prosperous society with equal opportunities and fairness, Canada wins. But if you believe a fundemental right someone should have is to make rediculous amounts of money they could never spend by compromising the middle class, America takes the take.

Betty
11-05-2004, 03:32 PM
If Canada's too far to the left, then how come it has such a higher standard of living then the United States? Beliefs are beliefs, but the facts show that Canada has a wider middle class and much less poverty, higher literacy rate, lower infant mortality rate, incarceration rate, crime rate in every degree, etc... I don't know exactly what they're doing but it seems to be working pretty well, or at least better then it does in the states.

Oh my god, I just wrote the longest reply and it was deleted since I wasn't logged in apparently, even though I was!

So yeah, what I did was mostly disprove a lot of the "facts" that you speak of.

Here is where I got my figures from. Feel free to show me other stats/facts sites. They say they get most of their info from the CIA world handbook, and that everything is cited. You can pick a country, pick a fact, and see how it ranks with the rest of the world. Pretty neat.

www.nationmaster.com

For crime per capita
US 81.55/1000
CAN 76.89/1000

These numbers are VERY close and don't say a whole lot about standards of living. I'd also like to point out that Canada has more non-violent crime such as theft or vandalism whereas the US has more violent crime.

For unemployment (you didn't list this one, but it's important when it comes to politics):
US 5.8%
CAN 7.6%

These are from 2002. So despite whatever people say, the US has a super low unemployment rate.

For literacy, both countries were at 97%.

For healthcare, I think there may be more access to healthcare, but we spend so much money on it that it takes away from other possible spending (eg education, R & D) and also it can be VERY abused. For example, my province introduced a healthcare premium and so I have to pay more for healthcare. I don't GO to the hospital, and if I do it's once a year for 5 minutes to get a prescription. So this money is going to all of those who go to the hospital once a week due to the sniffles. Also, they introduced a premium and cut certain funding like for optometrist coverage. This, I do need since I have glasses, need new prescriptions, etc. So, I'd much prefer to take my premium money and pay for the eye checkup myself than pay for both when I'm only using one. So yeah, it depends on priorities. I support two-tier healthcare. And if you're wondering why I rant about healthcare, it was pretty much the #1 issue in our last election, compared to the war being most important for the US.

For poverty, it is very tricky. I hesitate to use any facts whether they support my case or not since they are not necessarily representative. For example, in Canada the "poverty" is measured the the low income cut off (LICO). This will vary with the average earnings and is therefore relative. So if in theory everybody were rich and nobody was poor, the people in the lowest bracket would be put into the "poverty" category. I think it may be similar in the US (?) I think there is a wider spread of rich/poor in the US, but like you said, the US is richer. And whether we hate them or not, I think the super rich are necessary since they make the whole country richer and not just themselves.

I have quite an issue with the "equal opportunity" comment, but maybe I'll rant about that later.

VultureDude
11-05-2004, 08:21 PM
well, first off, i'm Canadian, and i want to make somethign painfully clear to all Americans, the Queen in Canada does not represent Britain, the key to the Monarchy in Canada is understanding our herritage. We're proud that we took a diplomatic path to our independence. Essentually, the Queen is represented by a "Governor General" in Canada whom is appointed by the Prime Minister once every 5 years (approx.). The benefit to having a Governor General, is that he/she is a representative of state, that being a representative of Canada as a whole. This frees up the Prime Minister's time and lets him/her focus on runing the country rather than entertaining diplomats or visiting other countries. This may seem strange, but it is essential because the Prime Minister has a seat in Parliament and debates just as any other representative in the House of Commons. The Governor General has no legislative power of authority over Canada, the role is purely symbolic.

Personally i prefer the Canadian political system over the american one, but that's natural because i grew up around it. I prefer the Canadian one because there are more parties to choose from: The Liberal Party, Conservative Party, New Democratic Party (NDP), and the Bloc Quebecois. And right now we even have an independent in there as well. in this perspective we can choose from the NDP, which is the least popular party (has 19 seats) and it's platform is on the basis of public programs, something you americans hate, state intervension. I for one am all for a healthy degree of state intervension (aka welfare state), sure, the taxes might be high, but we have good services and such. On the other hand, the other parties have different and unique policies as well, all of which have helped shape the direction of Canada.

anyways, enough rambling, done ranting, lol :)

SicN Twisted
11-05-2004, 11:20 PM
Check statistics for violent crime. Unemployment is technically higher in Canada, but enemployment benefits are so much higher in Canada that Canadians without jobs get many more benefits. Nobody can deny that Canada is a fairly comprehensive welfare state, and the poor do generally have more money. Compare the economic figures of the bottom 10 percent, and compare the income gap. Canada wins. If you can't find it yourself, I'll show you sources, but most of my sources or in books so I'd have to find them on the net and it's a pain in the ass. But if you check up on statistics within the bottom incomes and average wages for industrial workers, Canada has the upper hand. So I guess it all comes down to weather or not you believe in equal opportunity.

Jesus
11-06-2004, 06:16 AM
The UN Human Development Report is quite good for basic statistics
http://hdr.undp.org/reports/global/2004/

anyway...


For unemployment (you didn't list this one, but it's important when it comes to politics):
US 5.8%
CAN 7.6%

These are from 2002. So despite whatever people say, the US has a super low unemployment rate.


Those numbers are meaningless without context or how they are measured (long term uneployement included or not, variation between how it's calculated in both countries ). For instance it would be scary if the US would have a higher unemployment than Canada since there is almost no social system. Thus unemployment in the US is more important than in Canada.
It all depends what your aim is, if you want zero unemployment and don't care if people can actually live off their wages or have to work 16 hours a day, then such a thing is pretty easy to establish... (or else you throw'm in jail ;) )






For healthcare, I think there may be more access to healthcare, but we spend so much money on it that it takes away from other possible spending (eg education, R & D) and also it can be VERY abused.

The US spends more than any OECD country a person on health (also as a percentage of the GDP)

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/13/53/31963451.xls
http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/13/13/31963469.xls

They ofcourse get less back for it since most of it is privatized (for instance advertising costs, results in higher prices) and the US government doesn't use it's massive buying power either like most countries do...

Betty
11-06-2004, 09:35 AM
It's true that the unemployment stats need more context, in the same way that the poverty stats need a whole lot of context as well.

Also, I had looked at healthcare expenditures between the US and Canada and the US was higher, but I figured it would be hard to compare the two because of the huge difference between private and public systems. In Canada, the citizens will see more for their tax dollar. But still, there are tons of flaws that come with this system. Not all the money is being spent efficiently to improve healthcare, lots is wasted. The conservative candidate last election had the platform of making sure spending was efficient and implementing programs and whatnot for that (also some privatization), whereas the liberal candidate had the platform of just increasing the spending. Waiting times in Canada can be very long to get important procedures done, and since there is no privatization, people don't have any other option but to wait, or go to the US. Doctors and nurses have no incentive to stay since they will get low wages, and so half of them move to the US or elsewhere. There aren't enough doctors and nurses and they are overworked and the patients suffer for it. Etc, etc, etc.

I may concede that some things are better in Canada, but I would hope that you could agree that it is far from perfect and some things are better in the US. Canada isn't just the happy country that is perfect in every possible way. Also, everything depends on what you support, and we support different things obviously.

It's true that sources are a pain in the ass to find on the 'net and why I hate having to back up any claims I may make, but not wanting to believe all the claims that others make either. And not wanting to make false claims myself.

Finally, back to "equal opportunity". I 100% support equal opportunity. I think that every individual in a given country should have the same opportunity to succeed as any other individual in that country. I believe in merit. I think that everybody should have an equal shot at something to begin with and whoever deserves it the most in the end should get it. I want to know how welfare state == equal opportunity. This doesn't make sense to me. It seems to actually go against the idea and I can explain why. I have tons of arguments that I can give later, maybe later today. But right now I have some stuff to do. I'd kinda like to hear your definition of it first.

SicN Twisted
11-06-2004, 11:57 AM
http://hspm.sph.sc.edu/Courses/ECON/CLASSES/Canada.pdf

This is a comprehensive study that pretty much proves the inferiority of America's regressive healthcare system.

Betty
11-06-2004, 01:16 PM
Well, I did admit that Canadian healthcare was probably better than in the US in certain ways.

But I also don't think that the Canadian healthcare system is perfect and that improvements can be made.

The study you showed me mostly compared Canada and the US. When compared to other countries, Canada was usually still high on spending, but lower on benefits.

I found a good study from my favourite, the Fraser Institute, comparing Canada's system to other publicly funded systems. It is quite lengthy, but is pretty much summed up in the first few pages, if you were interested.

http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/admin/books/files/HowGoodCdnHealthCareComplete.pdf

Some problems with Canada's healthcare are that they are one of the only countries to entirely outlaw the administration of private care and that they ban any type of user fee. They spend more on healthcare than most countries when adjusted for age, and reap less benefits (longer waiting times, less access to necessary instruments, less doctors, etc.) Optional private healthcare, I believe, will help alleviate wait times in the public system (although the study you showed may have shown the opposite, I'm not sure I'm convinced by that one graph). Also, small user fees, with possible exemption for very low income individuals, would help pay for healthcare and would also help this "abuse" issue I spoke about. Both of these things are the way they are in Canada due to the government (and citizens) being too left and scared of any deviation from entirely publicly funded healthcare.

I know the republicans said that a major problem in American healthcare was the crazy lawsuits. And even though you may think the whole system should be changed, would you not agree that this is an important issue? Also, as was stated in the report you linked, there is too much bureaucracy.

Another big issue for the conservatives in Canada is that there should be less government and less bureaucracy so that tax dollars can be better used on REAL results, not just paying people to do a lot of nonproductive stuff. The liberals here just increase the size of the government.

SicN Twisted
11-06-2004, 01:44 PM
Of course Canadian healthcare is flawed. I was only comparing it to the United States because they shared a border so Canada is the most logical place for disgruntled Americans to take refuge, which has been a common topic amongst many groups of people since Bush's re-election. If Western Europe, i'd figure it was a no brainer that many EU countries have much better healthcare systems then both the US and Canada. France was rated by the world health organization as number one the world, and Germany isn't too far behind. I just didn't bring that up because Canada is the closest and most realistic refuge.

Mot
11-06-2004, 01:57 PM
Yea, canada kinda rules..

Izie
11-06-2004, 02:22 PM
/jesus/



Also, small user fees, with possible exemption for very low income individuals, would help pay for healthcare and would also help this "abuse" issue I spoke about. Both of these things are the way they are in Canada due to the government (and citizens) being too left and scared of any deviation from entirely publicly funded healthcare.


The Canadian system seems very similar to the Belgian, so i think the abuses are going to be similar.
The biggest abuser here in Belgium isn't the patient, but it's the doctor (togheter with the pharmaceutical industry naturally). Since the government pays back the medicines, most of the doctors don't care about the price of the medicine the prescribe.
Usually there are cheaper generic ones available (sometimes at 1/10 of the cost or even more), but since a doctor sometimes gets a free trip to one of the "conventions" somewhere in an exotic place from a big pharmaceutical company or some other gifts. They end up prescribing the expensive ones (strange uh). The industry even has a list of the doctors who are "good" and the ones who are "bad"...
This is quite a "hot item" now over here in Belgium since we don't have much else to worry about.
If Canada doesn't pay back medicines and has better laws, then consider it just some random info.



Also, as was stated in the report you linked, there is too much bureaucracy.


Bureaucracy is a natural result privatization.

/jesus/

Betty
11-06-2004, 06:04 PM
Sic - Yeah I know you wanted to show the flaws in the US system, but I kinda wanted to sneak in some arguments in support of why Canada is too far left, which you did not agree with.

Jesus - In Canada, prescriptions usually aren't covered by the government, but rather by some sort of health plan through your employment if you're lucky. So I don't know if it would be abused as much in that way. However, I could see similarities in the fact that certain doctors will treat patients for things that they do not necessarily need to be treated for just because it is covered and they'll make more money off of it. Interesting though...

And regarding bureaucracy and privatization, to me it seems it wouldn't be as bad since the company would be paying for it and not the government? Unless they were using government funds...

Sinister
06-21-2005, 07:31 PM
Canada sucks ass, IMHO - but dont blame us. BLAME CANADA is the worlds most stupid song.

I hate Canada cause its so damn cold and also cause nothing ever happens up here.

Sinister
06-21-2005, 07:36 PM
didnt mean to revive this. just lookin 4 stuff bout canada.

Italia311
06-22-2005, 07:31 AM
VultureDude really cleared up that whole queen thing. Saved me sometime. From what I've seen there has been alot of talk on Canada's Health Care system. I don't want to get into so much detail about it, but I have a few things to say. First off me personally, Canada's healthcare is fine, to the extent of a general blueprint of how healthcare should be. Obviously it is lacking in area's, there are long waits etc. But there are ways to solve this. I just want to express a few things I would do to help with this. As a studing politics/history student I've been tossing these around...some people think Im crazy, some people like them....

Ok so...Cigarette smokers? Lose their right to healthcare.
- As we are all tax payers some point in life whether we like it or not, we contribute to healthcare, giving us right to healthcare. Agree? BUT...since you smoke cigarettes and you know its the leading cause of deaths among Canadians, not to mention the several disease's that it causes, you then forfit your right to healthcare. Think about it, why are we spending money on people who are purposely killing themselves? Free up hospitals, and the smokers who have to pay, that money can be thrown into a health fund to support hospitals and such.

Fat People? ok ok too far? Maybe not...
- I don't know how many are aware but, alcohol is heavily taxed in Canada. I mean we don't notice it because at the Liquer and Beer stores the tax has already been implimented in the price. There no tax actually added on to the initial posted price. Ya Follow? It is heavily taxed because alcohol is harmful to your body. Well, what about Fat foods? Why is it cheaper to buy a bag of chips then it is for 6 beautiful apples? There is alot of promotion for healthy life in Canada but I dont see anything being done. Well heres one way. Its called a FAT TAX. So a Big Mac Meal at McDonalds is what..Rough 6 dollars? well with a fat tax, it would be bumped to rought 10 dollars. Not only does this encourage people to eat healthy it forces them too. Bag of rice is roughly .79 cents, few peppers some mushrooms, you got a ncie plate for no more then 2 - 3 dollars. And thats a BIG plate of rice. 1 - 4 people. Healthier people, less people in Hospital - Fat tax can contribute to healthcare.

So like it or love it. These are just Idea's I have in my head, either bored or just shootin the shit with people in class...:P The Fat Tax is quite Humorous...lol

I'd also like to add this in about Canada. Such a peaceful place to live. I am not origionally Canadian, but I've been here for 18yrs (I turn 22 this year). I lived in Boston for a month and, it was just too crazy. I live in a small town in ontario and I like it because it remindes me of the small town im from in Italy.

Canadian politics are fun. Minority Governments make politicians work at this country instead of sitting around passing any bill they want cause its a majority. I'm a liberal, but I've got to give credit to the official opposition conservative party for keeping them on their toes. Thats how a government assembly should work.

Quebec? HA. Keep dreaming. Maybe dig a trench along the boarders and actually seperate yourselves? Probably have a better chance. Giovanni Cabotto (italian explorer) founded Canada years before the French. You don't see us bitching. (more underlying detail within quebec, but ya know..little jab here and there its all good). Your best shot was in 1980. Rene Levesque. You'll never have a seperatist like him again. You are now Officially Canadian.

As far 75% of Business in Canada being American owned. You can thank Brian Mulroney and his Conservative party for signing a free trade agreement with the United States and Mexico (LOL). Whatta smart guy. You know, I wonder why Canada hasn't had a Conservative Government since 93? HRM??? Oh write, because there Government Policy is so rediculous, it wouldnt pass on MARS.

I've never heard of Alberta before. Canada has western Provnices?? :P

Something I hate about Canada. The Born Again Christians.

wheelchairman
06-22-2005, 07:51 AM
I love it when people want to make different people absolved from "free" healthcare. It usually starts out with the people who will actually need it.

Italia311
06-22-2005, 09:46 AM
Yeah. They will actually need it if they keep destroying their body purposely. But why care about someone if they don't even care about themself?