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RXP
05-22-2005, 03:38 AM
Answer me this. If a superpower went around policing the world with no alterior motive and enforced regime changes in countries that have tyricannal governments (i.e. now lets say N. Korea, Iran) would you be against it?

Is soverignty such an important concept to let pepole suffer in silence? Or is it the fact that you cannot stomach deaths which have a clear causal connection with military action. But you can stomach deaths that you don't hear about?

I'm just really interested because as many of you know I'm all for military enforced regieme change EVEN inspite of alterior motives.

wheelchairman
05-22-2005, 04:55 AM
Yes I would.

The people of these countries should overthrow their own dictators. Generally, regime change is far more bloodier than the actual dictators in power could be at the time. And it doesn't seem to be succesful, in any form. It's just a better disguised form of the regime changes certain superpowers forced in the cold-war. For that reason I'm against it.

Second, yes, a nation's right to self-determination is vital. Especially since, no nation likes a foreign army in it's soil. They have an irritating tendency to try and kill a whole bunch of these foreign army soldiers (who really, are just doing their job), as fast as possible.

I would support it, for example, if there was a large popular movement overthrowing these dictators, and said superpower offered aid to the revolutionaries. But superpowers have a tendency not to support revolutions, liberal, socialist, or otherwise.

wheelchairman
05-22-2005, 09:38 AM
Why not. Benefits US economy, makes US citizens feel better. Its win win.
Right, which is why, unemployment is at an all time low in the states. :rolleyes:

Little_Miss_1565
05-22-2005, 10:59 AM
Why not. Benefits US economy, makes US citizens feel better. Its win win.

Sure, it benefits the US. But what about the people who live in the country being occupied? I think it's pretty clear that the people of the Middle East are getting something of a raw deal right now. Sure, Saddam's gone, but fixing the problems in the region are not that simple.

Rye
05-22-2005, 10:19 PM
Right, which is why, unemployment is at an all time low in the states. :rolleyes:

I think you'd be the one to ask this... even with all of the soldiers off at war, unemployment is STILL rising. I may just be a stupid teenager, but that just doesn't seem to make sense (unless there are that many people entering the United States every day).

wheelchairman
05-23-2005, 08:05 AM
I think you'd be the one to ask this... even with all of the soldiers off at war, unemployment is STILL rising. I may just be a stupid teenager, but that just doesn't seem to make sense (unless there are that many people entering the United States every day).
The entire IT sector is being outsourced, of course jobs are being lost. The replacement jobs (which, according to the government's ideological economists, are coming as a natural flowing of the market) are service jobs. It's ridiculous.

And the soldiers in Iraq, to my knowledge, are full-time and reserves. So I don't think too many full-time jobs were opened up. And I'm guessing that they get their jobs back, when they return (the reservists I mean.) Since a tour doesn't last for the entire war.

Little_Miss_1565
05-23-2005, 02:07 PM
Those people will never have it nice. They didn't live good lives under Saddam, and they're even worse off now. Besides which, I honestly can't respect their culture anymore than not spitting on it. Look at them. Muslims in general ruin their own economies. They create nations where Islam is first and everything else second.

Did your mother top your cereal with paint chips?

wheelchairman
05-24-2005, 03:47 AM
Those people will never have it nice. They didn't live good lives under Saddam, and they're even worse off now. Besides which, I honestly can't respect their culture anymore than not spitting on it. Look at them. Muslims in general ruin their own economies. They create nations where Islam is first and everything else second.
Yep, Dubai is the fucking poorest country in the world.

Islam is a religion, not a culture. And it's no better or worse than Christianity.

Flexing Wings
05-24-2005, 04:21 AM
Those people will never have it nice. They didn't live good lives under Saddam, and they're even worse off now. Besides which, I honestly can't respect their culture anymore than not spitting on it. Look at them. Muslims in general ruin their own economies. They create nations where Islam is first and everything else second.

Are you American?

Little_Miss_1565
05-24-2005, 08:18 AM
What exactly is your disagreement with my opinion?

Other than that you're completely up your ass?

wheelchairman
05-24-2005, 08:23 AM
I was more reffering to the culture of the Islamic nations in the middle east.


oh were you? Maybe I misread what you were saying.


Muslims in general ruin their own economies.
Nope, you weren't. You were wrong.

Besides you know nothing of Middle Eastern culture. It's worst parts, can be found in certain parts of America too. Stuff your cultural imperialism.

Flexing Wings
05-24-2005, 08:31 AM
oh were you? Maybe I misread what you were saying.


Nope, you weren't. You were wrong.

Besides you know nothing of Middle Eastern culture. It's worst parts, can be found in certain parts of America too. Stuff your cultural imperialism.

Leave him alone, it's a commonly known fact that that querky self-imposed superiority thing is just inherent in American society... i'm sure he doesn't mean to be a condescending wanker.

Little_Miss_1565
05-24-2005, 08:33 AM
Leave him alone, it's a commonly known fact that that querky self-imposed superiority thing is just inherent in American society... i'm sure he doesn't mean to be a condescending wanker.

If it were inherent in American society, then why do I think it's completely fucked up? No excuse.

Flexing Wings
05-24-2005, 08:38 AM
If it were inherent in American society, then why do I think it's completely fucked up? No excuse.

Well i was only half serious, but sometimes i think that if someone hasn't been properly educated on a subject they're not always being 'ignorant' sometimes it's just naivety... and i don't think people can be blamed for that. personally.

RXP
05-24-2005, 08:40 AM
They create nations where Islam is first and everything else second.

This is true. Islamic jurisrprudence is what these countries are based on. Ther'es nothing wrong with bashing that. Sometimes I think people on the board get overly concerned by racism and what not. The fact of the matter is Islam in the middle east is far worse than Christianity is in the west. Because that's been temprered by Capitalism since the 1700s and Islam has no such constraint.

Little_Miss_1565
05-24-2005, 09:31 AM
Thats not exactly a reason. Do you even have an opinion on the topic of regime change(which we've all left a long time ago to insult me)?You'd rather act as though you were superior to me than actually discuss anything. I suppose any reply to this would tell me I'm too up my own ass to be intelligent enough to discuss anything.

WCM, I suppose you think the Quaran is an excellent guide to economics? Because basing your constitution around it will certainly effect a thing or two.

I'm sorry, you make a hate comment and then try to lecture me on intelligent discussion? I've already stated my opinion on regime change earlier in the thread. You might want to brush up on your critical reading skills.

And actually, there's a lot that can be learned about economics from studying the Dar al-Islam. Fundamentalism has little to nothing to do with what the Qu'ran actually says, much like how Bill Frist and George Bush do not speak for many, many, many Christians in this country. If you had ever bothered to study Islam before forming your racist opinions, perhaps you'd be more worth having an intelligent discussion with about this. As you obviously have not, I refuse.

RXP
05-24-2005, 10:18 AM
Fucking topic about a serious question I have gets ruined.

Little_Miss_1565
05-24-2005, 08:49 PM
Fucking topic about a serious question I have gets ruined.

Oh, fine, just because I can't stand to hear a grown man whinge. :)

Re: your earlier comment about Western Christianity v. Middle Eastern Islam. There was a fully functioning, sustainable, peaceful, and prosperous global society in the 1300's throughout the Middle East, with travel around the Mediterranean, into Africa, and reaching as far as China, and it was called the Dar al-Islam. I submit that because Islamic societies were so stable so long ago, they did not have the need to go capitalist as we did in the west. Thus, we've grown and embraced modernity because we've had to. Not so in the Middle East.

The Middle East was stable and prosperous when the Ottoman Empire ruled it. It only became a shatterbelt region when the OE fell and it was divvied up by and caught between the machinations of superpowers.

There are devout Muslims living out happy lives in the capitalist west, and a great deal of them attend college with me. For this reason I want to beat the living crap out of anyone that tries to suggest that the problems in the Middle East are inherent in Islam. And for fuck's sake, extremists are a minority in whatever group--often times they can be the most vocal, but that doesn't make them any less of a minority.

Not Ozymandias
05-24-2005, 09:58 PM
Answer me this. If a superpower went around policing the world with no alterior motive and enforced regime changes in countries that have tyricannal governments (i.e. now lets say N. Korea, Iran) would you be against it?

Is soverignty such an important concept to let pepole suffer in silence? Or is it the fact that you cannot stomach deaths which have a clear causal connection with military action. But you can stomach deaths that you don't hear about?

I'm just really interested because as many of you know I'm all for military enforced regieme change EVEN inspite of alterior motives.
Casual connection?!?! 20,000 civilians have died so far in the Iraq invasion, and they'd still be alive otherwise. That's a pretty strong fucking connection.

RXP
05-25-2005, 12:34 PM
Casual connection?!?! 20,000 civilians have died so far in the Iraq invasion, and they'd still be alive otherwise. That's a pretty strong fucking connection.

Exactly my point sir. The thousands that died under Saddam are OK cause you don't see the causal connection in the news.

ALso 1565, the extremists are the ones in power. Islamic teachings do breed fantisism much like christian teachings which as I said before have been tempered by capialism. Both, unfettered are bad. You hinted that empire might be the soultion the blood shed in the middle east. Perhaps a superrun empire in hte present time. Exactly my point. Exactly what so many are against.

Further I'm not a grown man.

Not Ozymandias
06-03-2005, 07:40 PM
Exactly my point sir. The thousands that died under Saddam are OK cause you don't see the causal connection in the news.
A concern about the massive death toll of an invasion indicates to you an apathy about the far lesser death toll of a dicatator killing his people?? That's absurd - the whole point is you don't solve the problem of people dying by killing far, FAR more people.