Disgusted

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Originally Posted by MOTO13

Why would it be shameful? There is a huge amount of money being pumped into welfare. Just like anything, the bill paying public (you know, the idiots getting up everyday and going to work supporting these programs) should have the right to know who they are supporting, what programs they are on, how long they have been on assistance and how much they are receiving. Why is this so bad? Seems quite reasonable to me.

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And what would you do with that information? There's no need to make it easier for judgmental assholes to harass people receiving benefits. Secondly, this (once again) rests on the assertion that everyone who is receiving benefits is on them as a career choice, or has never been employed (or is not seeking employment, or is not employed in the first place; most SNAP recipients *are* employed and *do* work); it's unfair to the people who have no choice. You know, people who are looking at either receiving SNAP benefits, or starving to death because the majority of their income (if they have income) goes elsewhere. You don't have a right to know these things about other people, and you don't have a right to threaten or blackmail people who use it in order to further your own personal political philosophy.

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Originally Posted by MOTO13

Maybe...just maybe, some of these people who have been on welfare for years should be fucking ashamed. Maybe that would be a good thing. Then you could see exactly what welfare costs, how these people live and what they have been doing with the money we scarifice for them and if they have even attempted to better their lot in life. Then we could address our politicians and ask why so much money gets pumped into certain areas...where vote buying may be going on. Now that's just a wild theory.

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Nobody should be ashamed simply because they are on welfare, or receiving benefits of any kind. A person should never be ashamed of doing what they must do to survive. You may as well tell a person that they should be ashamed to be alive.

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Originally Posted by Static_Martyr

And what would you do with that information? There's no need to make it easier for judgmental assholes to harass people receiving benefits. Secondly, this (once again) rests on the assertion that everyone who is receiving benefits is on them as a career choice, or has never been employed (or is not seeking employment, or is not employed in the first place; most SNAP recipients *are* employed and *do* work); it's unfair to the people who have no choice. You know, people who are looking at either receiving SNAP benefits, or starving to death because the majority of their income (if they have income) goes elsewhere. You don't have a right to know these things about other people, and you don't have a right to threaten or blackmail people who use it in order to further your own personal political philosophy.

Nobody should be ashamed simply because they are on welfare, or receiving benefits of any kind. A person should never be ashamed of doing what they must do to survive. You may as well tell a person that they should be ashamed to be alive.

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A person should never be ashamed of what they need to do to survive??? Really? You're right, a person should be proud of what they need to do to survive. Hopefully they're proud using the taxpayer to make a living for them. How that would be possible is well beyond my comprehension.

Yeah, you're right...why would a taxpayer care where the money they bust their ass for goes? The government works so efficently what could possibly go wrong.

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Originally Posted by MOTO13

A person should never be ashamed of what they need to do to survive??? Really? You're right, a person should be proud of what they need to do to survive.

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Did I say they should be *proud* of being on welfare? I don't think I did, although I don't see anything wrong with collecting the benefits that your taxes have paid for for years (for example, I worked for 7 years before I was on food stamps). I'm advocating a subtle indifference to the opinions of people who make snap judgments -- not a sense of pride, nor a sense of shame. Being ashamed of having to be on government assistance is similar to being ashamed of having a shitty job. You do what you have to do, and to the extent that your actions are shaped by your circumstances, you really shouldn't care if some other judgmental asshole thinks you're lazy because you are going through a rough patch. You just do what you must to make ends meet, and go from there.

If I had internalized every dirty look or condescending slam I received from every cashier while I was on food stamps (for all of two months), then I would probably have just become a bitter and angry person as well. But I tried to steer clear of the temptation to return like with like, and before long I was able to get off of them, and nobody knew the difference. It's funny how, in one day I went from being regarded as "a leech on society" to "an honest, hard-working citizen who is working through college."

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Originally Posted by MOTO13

Yeah, you're right...why would a taxpayer care where the money they bust their ass for goes? The government works so efficently what could possibly go wrong.

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You seem to forget that, at one point, many welfare/SNAP collectors and former collectors WERE, or are now, taxpaying citizens. So they paid into the system as well.

Moto and Static, this post represents the end of your circular argument.

Tim, Bri was more or less correct in her assessment about these kids being better off in the system than with their current guardians IMO. However, rather than ask for more information on the original topic, you and moto, oh so typically, began arguing about welfare. Moto has said several times, that he understands welfare as a necessity, however there are plenty of people who abuse the system. Just because you haven't, or don't know how, doesn't mean it isn't easy if you know the right people. As I said in a separate thread, I've seen it myself. $500 a week in money. That doesn't include food stamps, housing assistance, etc. People can do it. That is what makes moto angry, not the people using it for its intended purpose.

Now, back to the topic at hand, Tim. If you will kindly reread the original post. The basics are all there. It was not a special occasion, they live in her grandfather's house, only one works making $200 a week while the other refuses to work, they have $400 phones that they paid cash upfront for, they don't bathe their children, they spend more money on their dogs than their kids, and so on. These people enrage me endlessly. As Llamas said, "Shit stains" whose children should be taken away. You jumped down her throat for nothing.

If we can't be civil, I will close the thread and refrain from ever mentioning welfare again.

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Originally Posted by _Lost_

$500 a week in money. That doesn't include food stamps, housing assistance, etc. People can do it. That is what makes moto angry, not the people using it for its intended purpose.

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It would be a much better, and much less confrontational, approach, then, should MOTO in the future opt to stick to those things as criticisms, instead of casting everyone who receives benefits in the same light as the people who break the law that he hates so much.

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Originally Posted by _Lost_

As Llamas said, "Shit stains" whose children should be taken away. You jumped down her throat for nothing.

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I disagree.

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Originally Posted by _Lost_

If we can't be civil, I will close the thread and refrain from ever mentioning welfare again.

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Works for me. That said, I don't see any exchange here as uncivil. Heated, maybe, but not uncivil, unless your definition of "uncivil" is "people not agreeing."

un·civ·il [uhn-siv-uhl] Show IPA
adjective
1.
without good manners; unmannerly; rude; impolite; discourteous.

I'm pretty sure Lost is going with the standard definition.

Can I suggest we all drop it so she isn't forced to close the thread? I would be embarrassed if I directly contributed to a thread having to be closed. You have every right to disagree with anyone's opinions but when you disagree with a moderator regarding an assessment they have made in their capacity as moderator it's generally best to take it up with them privately.

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Originally Posted by Paint_It_Black

Can I suggest we all drop it so she isn't forced to close the thread? I would be embarrassed if I directly contributed to a thread having to be closed. You have every right to disagree with anyone's opinions but when you disagree with a moderator regarding an assessment they have made in their capacity as moderator it's generally best to take it up with them privately.

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I already said, "works for me." This conversation wasn't really going anywhere anyway.

Lost, you gave a story that represents what we have been hearing about this bullshit welfare state we call the USA for years. You could have jumped in at any moment but you enjoyed the banter. This thread was started because you were fed up with what you saw regarding welfare. This thread is on topic and so were each of our posts. We can't know the specifics of your original post but we took it from there and kept it civil and on point. I think we can all agree that SM is full of shit. But to pull this BS close thread flag is reedonkulous. But, do what you want.

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Originally Posted by MOTO13

You could have jumped in at any moment but you enjoyed the banter. This thread was started because you were fed up with what you saw regarding welfare. This thread is on topic and so were each of our posts. We can't know the specifics of your original post but we took it from there and kept it civil and on point...But to pull this BS close thread flag is reedonkulous. But, do what you want.

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Well fancy that, we agree on something.

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Originally Posted by MOTO13

I think we can all agree that SM is full of shit.

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The feeling's mutual.

Let's take a moment to acknowledge the fact that I have two jobs and a social life that I prioritize above reading the two of you arguing with various members of this forum. Fortunately, there are four of us and I don't have to spend all day every day reading this nonsense. When I read your "banter", I stepped in and said something. You both are on this tiring, long winded, circular thing, where Moto says "People who abuse the system are scum." and Tim saying "So I was on assistance for two months and that makes me scum?" This thread is most definitely about people who are abusing the system. Tim, you'd be hard pressed to find someone who opposes every and all types of assistance when used appropriately.