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Thread: Nationalism

  1. #1
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    Lightbulb Nationalism

    Now, I don't want the plain and simple "what is it and examples", but more along the lines of why it exists. And focused on the ethnic nationalism, please (and yes, I do know this topic will probably evolve into Godknowswhat eventually).

    So, what are your oppinions? Why does nationalism exist? How does it begin? How does it develop, and why do people support it? And if you have any ideas, a profile of the person who does support it would be nice.
    #N/A

  2. #2
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    hmmm why it exists, this is an area I haven't focused on particularly much, so what I might say could be quite fallacious.

    Nationalism as we see it, has developed from a time, probably when a nation reaches the feudal stage of development and a kingdom is divided into different geographic city states. The only way for a Prince to gain support was by creating a feeling of regional superiority, this was especially needed for defence and war purposes I would suppose. And of course these feelings become especially polarized during war.

    Nationalism as we see it today, is a remnant of this. It's used and abused by politicians for their own purposes. Colonisation for example, most certainly prolonged these feelings.

    As I see it though, we shouldn't group all these feelings together, there are in areas of conflict and contradiction, two kinds of nationalisms. One nationalism is the nationalism of the oppressor. The imperialist force, the Americans Nationalism in Iraq is an example of this nationalism, another is the British in Ireland. This kind of nationalism, obviously should not be accepted.

    However, there is an acceptable kind in my opinion. The nationalism of a group of oppressed people, this is different from the latter nationalism. It is not used for imperial purposes, it is used to unite the people against their oppressors. Like that of the nationalists in Iraq, in fact Ba'athism itself was Arab Nationalism based, but the resistance mostly draws from Iraqi nationalism to fight Americans, and to a lesser extent Islam, which has definite Arab nationalist elements in it. Or the IRA in Ireland. Although the IRA has decayed from what it once was, and is really just a group of thugs and drug dealers. But back in the day it was an Irish nationalist force. (Very romanticized in the Irish emigré communities in the states.)

    There is an interesting form of nationalism inside Western European countries now, against immigrants. We can see it with the rise of Nationalist parties across Europe. In my opinion this too is an incorrect and fallacious nationalism. It generalizes a group of people based on judgements of skin color (and this is always a wrong generalization). This form of nationalism is used to worsen and weaken the condition and position of the immigrant communities inside Western Europe. Because when we invited them over, we never meant for them actually to be a part of our democracy, we only wanted them as laborers, they were never meant to rise in social class or actually talk to us. Now that they do, we're fucking terrified.
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  3. #3
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    Lightbulb

    The nationalism in the feudal era is quite understandable, so I never really thought about it much.

    I will agree about the two sorts of nationalism in history, and I will agree that the first is unacceptable, whereas the second is, but I was most interested in the one you last mentioned.

    I agree it is unacceptable, but that's not really my question, my question is why people would resort to this now. We've had quite a few lectures on the nationalism in Belgium (more like neo-nazism), and they were extremely interesting to me. They said EXACTLY the same things like our Radical Party did, and everyone knows our Radical party is... The reason we're considered neanderthal. So I don't see, how they can consider some people neanderthal, for the points of view they accept. I don't understand why they would want to resort to such a backwards policy, and what good it can bring.

    That's my main question really, what good do people find in nationalism and the hatred it supports?
    #N/A

  4. #4
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    Personally I say it's the policy of the system. It's so easy.

    Every politician needs an easy solution, and every politician needs a trademark case to fight passionately for. Now when you have a group of people, in which there is a large amount of crime, and they are generally the same skin color (or religion), then it's so easy to lump them together and blame all crime on them.

    Although to believe that crime is solely based on this one group, is to believe that there was no crime before they came, and that there will be none after they leave. This is obviously wrong, crime always exists among the lower classes.

    But actually doing something about the class problem, no that would be too difficult and dangerous to the system. However blaming everything on a group of people and grouping them together based on skin color and religion, well that's a policy that has worked in the western world since the dawn of capitalism and the end of slavery. Ordinary people who are nationalist, are generally uneducated, and see the logic that one skin color is more violent than another, based solely on statistics. The media is no help whatsoever, the media mentions 'muslim' and 'middle east' in almost exclusively negative terms (this is of course a reference to mainstream media.)

    So you are mixing these patriotic feelings from the middle age, and turning them into a form of xenophobia (because there was no immigration really back then, not at the scale that we have today.) Now certain politicians can get away with saying they are not Dutch, so they do not belong in the land of the Dutch. They can't and won't integrate (says a lot about the mindset of the people, since integration happens from both sides). etc. etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by T-6005 View Post
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  5. #5
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    Nationalism feels like it is thinking the best for your country. And everybordy with and opinion abot how a country should be.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jojan
    Nationalism feels like it is thinking the best for your country. And everybordy with and opinion abot how a country should be.
    Did you not read the very first line of this thread?
    Quote Originally Posted by T-6005 View Post
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  7. #7
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    Yeah Jojan you naughty boy. If you don't directly relate to whatever it is that WCM wants to talk about then you aren't following the rules. For shame you non-contributor you.

  8. #8
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    Of course. The debate is on the nature of nationalism. Not the definition. Why do people believe in it, not do they believe in it.
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  9. #9
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    Wheelchair man are u serious?

    How the hell can u make such judgements from all the way up there in Denmark?

    While im no staunch replublican, i still try to take a middle ground view.

    the British took over Ireland, they were beaten out of everypart but the North.

    population in the North is like 53 per cent unionist[protestants for the most part] and 47% republicans/nationalists[catholics for the most part]

    drug dealers is very wide off the mark and is the exception to the rule and not the rule itself. i dunno where u get ideas like that from but take it from someone who lives there that u watch far too much UK news.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by noodler
    Wheelchair man are u serious?

    How the hell can u make such judgements from all the way up there in Denmark?

    While im no staunch replublican, i still try to take a middle ground view.

    the British took over Ireland, they were beaten out of everypart but the North.

    population in the North is like 53 per cent unionist[protestants for the most part] and 47% republicans/nationalists[catholics for the most part]

    drug dealers is very wide off the mark and is the exception to the rule and not the rule itself. i dunno where u get ideas like that from but take it from someone who lives there that u watch far too much UK news.
    I've lived in Ulster. You can get whatever numbers you want. The British have no business up North. The Unionists should integrate into the Republic of Ireland.

    and really, both the UVF and IRA are guilty of organized forms for crimes nowadays. I've talked to quite a few cops.
    Last edited by wheelchairman; 12-21-2004 at 06:04 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by T-6005 View Post
    I do no be following, fortune prick me if I do no.

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