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Thread: Iran...

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxygene View Post
    It's really fucking easy to judge something from a velvet chair when it doesn't hit home. Some can't afford that luxury.
    I think I love you.
    "There are no fools more bothersome than those with wit"

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxygene View Post
    Yeah I'm actually in the range of those nukes...
    Whose? Israel has plenty AND has threatened to use them, not to mention the abysmal human rights record, habit of invading neighbors, etc., but i doubt even they'd commit a first strike. You can't mean Iran because Iran doesn't have any. In fact by our intelligence agencies estimates it will most likely be years before they have the capacity. Also, as mentioned, Iran VOLUNTEERED to suspend all uranium enrichment, blame the Bush administrastion for that one. as it stands the United States is the biggest obstacle to curbing nuclear proliferation, as I mentioned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oxygene View Post
    But we have a nice saying where I am from "stop beating the poison ivy bush with my dick"
    Thats' actually an interesting colloquialism. I'll have to remember it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oxygene View Post
    I have no issue with burma, with israel with saudi arabia, because they are no threat to my safety.
    Is that the only reason? Do you believe we have obligations to other human beings who are suffering simply because they are human? If so, what is the extent of that obligation? Also, my country is more directly involved in these countries, we supply the Israeli military, so when they committed recent atrocities in Gaza, I am a part of that because I pay taxes, but even if I didn't I would still feel sympathy and want to help. We are also rather intimately connected with Saudi Arabia, which makes Iran look secular and moderate by comparison, stoning people to death is like a national sport.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oxygene View Post
    Iran however directly affects the nazi right wing in my country by harboring them supporting them by giving them a soap box for them to shout out their holocaust denial right wing mindless propaganda, putting them in the news and shit. And I won't even bother going into any detail.

    I don't think theres' any reason to think Iran is any direct military danger to it's neighbors, but you're point about harboring extremists may be quite valid, thats' unfortunate. I have made several posts on my disdain for religious extremism, religion in general. However, I also want to reiterate, as Americans the situation is unique. Our government turned a pro-western democracy into a fascist nightmare, the religious zealots were the only ones left because the stable secular leaders were executed or exiled. That responsibility complicates the issue, although sadly it often goes unrecognized.

  3. #23
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    its really fascinating to watch whats going on there via twitter. for an example, theyre sharing guerilla tactics. i read several where they instructed to remove street signs and house numbers to disorient troops from out of town. some discuss how many people should be in each group. I never thought of Twitter as being legitimate, but its definately got its place in history now.

    Its hard to process whats going on, its all happening so fast. You must wonder, is the CIA fueling this?

    Also, I liked comparing this to the 2000 elections in the US. It is so admirable that Iranians will take to the streets and fight for change. Americans won't do that. Sure, they made Bush's life miserable, but as a country nobody really stood up, cried foul, and fought to right the wrongs. Iranians will. Godspeed.

  4. #24
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    lol, are you seriously comparing Iran to the U.S.?
    Quote Originally Posted by ninthz View Post
    Good thread.

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    I do believe he is.
    "There are no fools more bothersome than those with wit"

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by NGNM85 View Post
    Whose? Israel has plenty AND has threatened to use them, not to mention the abysmal human rights record, habit of invading neighbors, etc., but i doubt even they'd commit a first strike. You can't mean Iran because Iran doesn't have any. In fact by our intelligence agencies estimates it will most likely be years before they have the capacity. Also, as mentioned, Iran VOLUNTEERED to suspend all uranium enrichment, blame the Bush administrastion for that one. as it stands the United States is the biggest obstacle to curbing nuclear proliferation, as I mentioned.
    Not against me or my way of life they didn't.. if Iran is interested in uranium enrichment for energy pourposes like they say, why the fuck would they offere to suspend it, and what's the connection between Iran's internal energy policy, and the Bush administrations foreign policy. Logic eludes me...

    Quote Originally Posted by NGNM85 View Post
    Thats' actually an interesting colloquialism. I'll have to remember it.
    Thanks I'm glad u liked it!

    Quote Originally Posted by NGNM85 View Post
    Is that the only reason? Do you believe we have obligations to other human beings who are suffering simply because they are human? If so, what is the extent of that obligation? Also, my country is more directly involved in these countries, we supply the Israeli military, so when they committed recent atrocities in Gaza, I am a part of that because I pay taxes, but even if I didn't I would still feel sympathy and want to help. We are also rather intimately connected with Saudi Arabia, which makes Iran look secular and moderate by comparison, stoning people to death is like a national sport.
    I believe that we do have some responsibility towards other human being who are sufferint simply because they are human, I however don't think that it is my obligation to forcefully intervene.. it isn't a black and white situation like in North Korea for example, the majority is grey. Also if you brush up on your recent history and look up 1956 Hungary for example you'll see just how seriously the west takes the ideological battle when there is no oil involved.. or look at North Korea now. I believe in priroities and Israels threat to use it's nuclear weapons is pretty low on this that worry me personally.

    I am sorry you are forced to parttake against your will, but the sheer distance difference between you and me to Iran is what makes this more relevant for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by NGNM85 View Post
    I don't think theres' any reason to think Iran is any direct military danger to it's neighbors, but you're point about harboring extremists may be quite valid, thats' unfortunate. I have made several posts on my disdain for religious extremism, religion in general. However, I also want to reiterate, as Americans the situation is unique. Our government turned a pro-western democracy into a fascist nightmare, the religious zealots were the only ones left because the stable secular leaders were executed or exiled. That responsibility complicates the issue, although sadly it often goes unrecognized.
    I think any country where the official rhetoric is "wiping so-and-so country off the map" is a direct military danger.

  7. #27
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    Sorry I've been missing for a few days - NGNM85 - thanks for fueling some interesting debate while I've been gone

    Oxy - with no disrespect lets talk about this some more because I think you bring up some interesting points that I tend to disagree with

    Quote Originally Posted by Oxygene View Post
    Not against me or my way of life they didn't.. if Iran is interested in uranium enrichment for energy pourposes like they say, why the fuck would they offere to suspend it, and what's the connection between Iran's internal energy policy, and the Bush administrations foreign policy. Logic eludes me...
    This I fully agree with and I don't have any doubt. However, that being said let me play devils advocate for a minute here, how would you feel if you were a country who hasn't been allowed to run its own course in over a century (1953 coup being the prime example) that when it came to then doing something as fundamental as developing nuclear energy so you can finally stop using some of your own resources on yourself to better improve your economy and everyone has a shitstorm about it... in some respects I did appreciate that the government tried to stand up for itself.

    Of course, it doesn't help that they're nuts, but that's beside the point.
    As for the Bush foreign policy - the connection is rough and you may not agree with it but a lot of Iran's reactions of late are because of Bush. In 1999, the students were having different protests/etc against the government for a series of things and the country was perhaps leading to what has now happened recently, but Bush had to include Iran in its axis of evil, and because they didn't want another shah situation the country reacted.


    I believe that we do have some responsibility towards other human being who are sufferint simply because they are human, I however don't think that it is my obligation to forcefully intervene.. it isn't a black and white situation like in North Korea for example, the majority is grey. Also if you brush up on your recent history and look up 1956 Hungary for example you'll see just how seriously the west takes the ideological battle when there is no oil involved.. or look at North Korea now. I believe in priroities and Israels threat to use it's nuclear weapons is pretty low on this that worry me personally.

    I am sorry you are forced to parttake against your will, but the sheer distance difference between you and me to Iran is what makes this more relevant for me.
    I actually don't have anything to say on this matter because of my lack of experience in any such situations given I live in California.


    I think any country where the official rhetoric is "wiping so-and-so country off the map" is a direct military danger.
    Personally, I'm only going to make one note here, many people in Iran may not like Israel but lets not forget that all of this is happening because they don't like the government spewing this crap any more than the rest of us.

    That being said, don't be blind to the media, a lot of Ahmadinejad's comments (and im not AT ALL giving any validity to them) are in relation to why Israel is in the middle east and not in Europe where the people that committed such awful atrocities should be the ones making up for it.

    As for the actual rhetoric about wiping so and so country off the map - you're right - and everyone in Iran knows it too - which is why its such a joke that he "won" by such a landslide but don't give countries like Israel a free pass either then - they always claim the reactionary side but how often have they been itching to have an excuse to attack Iran? sooner or later someone was going to pop up in the role to then respond simple enough with "we're done with you" kind of thing. (again not judging right or wrong just trying to shed light on the other side).

    @TheOldMark - I can't help but wonder if the CIA has something to do with some of this either - but maybe that's because I'm paranoid that the US can never leave Iran alone

  8. #28
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    Yugoslavia, Afganistan, Iraq.. there's discussion about Iran.. who's next? Norht Korea? Pakistan? Venesuala? Maybe once more Somali? Or Vietnam duble two?

    Or Russia?


    Quote Originally Posted by TheOldMark View Post
    Its hard to process whats going on, its all happening so fast.
    Why so fast? Some things are predicted.



    Quote Originally Posted by TheOldMark View Post
    You must wonder, is the CIA fueling this?
    Not only CIA. The Government people too... Maybe you should search "Zeitgeist" in the Internet? It's a very interesting documentary movie. There's a few of different sourses where you can read/watch about CIA's role.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheOldMark View Post
    its really fascinating to watch whats going on there via twitter. for an example, theyre sharing guerilla tactics. i read several where they instructed to remove street signs and house numbers to disorient troops from out of town. some discuss how many people should be in each group. I never thought of Twitter as being legitimate, but its definately got its place in history now.

    Its hard to process whats going on, its all happening so fast. You must wonder, is the CIA fueling this?

    Also, I liked comparing this to the 2000 elections in the US. It is so admirable that Iranians will take to the streets and fight for change. Americans won't do that. Sure, they made Bush's life miserable, but as a country nobody really stood up, cried foul, and fought to right the wrongs. Iranians will. Godspeed.
    Quote Originally Posted by RickyCrack View Post
    lol, are you seriously comparing Iran to the U.S.?
    Well I think the fundamental problem is the significantly better life Americans have but if you look at it purely at an election level and believe that Gore won - then you can compare to say Bush simply found a more "legal" way of doing exactly what Ahmadinejad just did. That being said I think a lot of the things in Iran right now have to do with the economic state. Put the US in the same economic state and it might have, in fact, had a similar reaction.

    Quote Originally Posted by NGNM85 View Post
    Whose? Israel has plenty AND has threatened to use them, not to mention the abysmal human rights record, habit of invading neighbors, etc., but i doubt even they'd commit a first strike. You can't mean Iran because Iran doesn't have any. In fact by our intelligence agencies estimates it will most likely be years before they have the capacity. Also, as mentioned, Iran VOLUNTEERED to suspend all uranium enrichment, blame the Bush administrastion for that one. as it stands the United States is the biggest obstacle to curbing nuclear proliferation, as I mentioned.
    This is a point people shouldn't forget - Iran offered an olive branch, all be it a very small one, and Bush shat all over it - which is why Iran is very reactionary now

    As for the first strike thing, I'm siding on this, its a lot of saber rattling but I'd put the first strike on the "pre-emptive" group of people first than Iran (Israel/US)

    Thats' actually an interesting colloquialism. I'll have to remember it.
    agreed - as will I

    Is that the only reason? Do you believe we have obligations to other human beings who are suffering simply because they are human? If so, what is the extent of that obligation? Also, my country is more directly involved in these countries, we supply the Israeli military, so when they committed recent atrocities in Gaza, I am a part of that because I pay taxes, but even if I didn't I would still feel sympathy and want to help. We are also rather intimately connected with Saudi Arabia, which makes Iran look secular and moderate by comparison, stoning people to death is like a national sport.




    I don't think theres' any reason to think Iran is any direct military danger to it's neighbors, but you're point about harboring extremists may be quite valid, thats' unfortunate. I have made several posts on my disdain for religious extremism, religion in general. However, I also want to reiterate, as Americans the situation is unique. Our government turned a pro-western democracy into a fascist nightmare, the religious zealots were the only ones left because the stable secular leaders were executed or exiled. That responsibility complicates the issue, although sadly it often goes unrecognized.
    This is the fundamental problem - and the solution honestly is to let it play out and do what Obama is doing - try to calm things down - while not completely losing sight that a bad move can react in a war in the region so keeping an eye on that.

    Regardless - this may all be a moot point if the reformists can find and take the next step. Should all this get put down - then things will be interesting - but at the moment - as for war - I'd personally still be more worried about Israel stepping in should Ahmadinejad manage to stay in power, than Iran developing its nukes then lashing out

    EDIT: it's only fair I play devils advocate on the other side too because it isn't simply black and white and I would appear to be too close minded if I didn't do this - I'm not saying Israel doesn't have a right to feel threatened - I'm just saying that they're probably the cause of more trouble than they or anyone else cares to admit from time to time.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx View Post
    Not only CIA. The Government people too... Maybe you should search "Zeitgeist" in the Internet? It's a very interesting documentary movie. There's a few of different sourses where you can read/watch about CIA's role.
    Haha...oh man. You're funny.
    "There are no fools more bothersome than those with wit"

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