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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by sipptaroowsky View Post
    I like Iran, I think Iran survived in spite of overwhelming odds, it's not easy to be neighbor to imperially motivated countries
    I guess their holocaust denial and desire to wipe certain countries off the map on religious grounds is right up your alley.

  2. #42


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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxygene View Post
    I guess their holocaust denial and desire to wipe certain countries off the map on religious grounds is right up your alley.
    And yet, you donít see the same thing in Germany, you even defend Germany.

    Was it so long ago? Or maybe you didnít feel it, maybe all of us felt it, but you didnít.

    You canít fight against someone whoís trying to kill you by the rules, you go out of your way to ensure your survival. But youíre right, I donít agree with their crimes, but every country has something horrible they did.

    Thank you for not using any bad words against me this time, I apretiate it.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by sipptaroowsky View Post
    And yet, you donít see the same thing in Germany, you even defend Germany.

    Was it so long ago? Or maybe you didnít feel it, maybe all of us felt it, but you didnít.

    You canít fight against someone whoís trying to kill you by the rules, you go out of your way to ensure your survival. But youíre right, I donít agree with their crimes, but every country has something horrible they did.

    Thank you for not using any bad words against me this time, I apretiate it.
    So you're fine with the whole 'let-us-kill-people-and-cover-up-a-rigged-election' bit?
    "There are no fools more bothersome than those with wit"

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxygene View Post
    I guess their holocaust denial and desire to wipe certain countries off the map on religious grounds is right up your alley.
    Those were statements made by President Ahmedinijad, which would be more significant if the Iranian political system was more like ours, but it isn't. Ahmedinijad answers to the Ayatollah, he has to answer to superiors, he's not running the show, he has nowhere near the institutional power of our president. I also suspect those statements were political, and that he's just playing to a certain demographic. Iran's foreign policy has actually been fairly cautious and shrewd, Iran also supports the proposal of the Arab League, which is essentially supported by virtually all of the UN, to normalize relations with Israel if they could just try to follow international law. If anything, Iran should be much more afraid of Israel, and I don't doubt they are. Israel is an extremely aggressive nation, on par with the US, it's also the regions' military superpower.

    Quote Originally Posted by IamSam View Post
    So you're fine with the whole 'let-us-kill-people-and-cover-up-a-rigged-election' bit?
    That makes sense if you forget world history and politics up until this year. The US violently overthrew the democratically elected governments of Nicaragua, Chile, Zaire, and Iran, to name a few. Iran is a perfect example. They tried to nationalize their oil industry which was being looted by British petroleum which was keeping all the profits, so there had to be a "regime change." The democracy was overthrown, the president was thrown in prison, and the protestors and moderates who opposed this were beaten, terrorized or executed. In Chile, the leader of the CIA-backed military junta turned the stadiums into massive torture factories where they ripped peoples' teeth and toenails out with pliers, subjected them to electric shocks and many other tortures, and blew their brains out when it was over. Stephen Kinzer wrote a fantastic book about the US-backed Iranian coup called "All the Shah's Men", I highly recommend it. The most brutal example is Indonesia and East Timor, but I won't go into that right now. You don't have to go back that far, either, for example, the Bush administration did everything it could to PREVENT the much publicized Iraqi elections, there were massive protests, they wouldn't allow it, until they HAD to, then they claimed thats' what they wanted all along like: "I meant to do that." Nonsense.

    Or, look at some of our allies, we support and even sell guns to some of the worst human rights violators. We sold guns to Saddam up until he invaded Kuwait, we're very friendly with Saudi Arabia which is about the scariest religious-extremist nightmare state you could imagine, and lastly Israel, who's excessive and repeated violations of human rights accords are voluminously recorded by Amnesty, Human Rights Watch, and others.
    I'm not defending the actions of the Iranian government, but that has to be accompanied by a hard, long look in the mirror if you want to have a serious conversation. Otherwise it's the "pot calling the kettle.."
    Last edited by NGNM85; 09-11-2009 at 01:22 PM.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by NGNM85 View Post
    Blah. Blah. Blah
    Christ. Shut up already. You ruined a perfectly fine question with a whole lot of back story that no one needed. Christ. I already fucking knew all of what you babbled about which didn't have anything to do with what was being said.

    Bugger off.
    "There are no fools more bothersome than those with wit"

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by IamSam View Post
    Christ. Shut up already. You ruined a perfectly fine question with a whole lot of back story that no one needed.
    This is part of the problem with American political discourse, and the broader ulture in general, complex ideas can't always be condensed to a sound bite, thus nothing really gets communicated and people get dumber by the generation. Thats' why we have the 'birthers' or this 'death panel' nonsense. None of these people have the most basic grasp of what they're talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by IamSam View Post
    Christ. I already fucking knew all of what you babbled about
    I find that difficult to believe. Even if it's true that puts you in a minority, statistics show Americans' are pathetically uneducated when it comes to history and world politics, thats' part of why theres' so much confusion. One doesn't often hear about Reagan supporting death squads in South America, thats' relegated to the dustbin of history, so how can people actually understand what makes Hugo Chavez tick? It's like the post-9/11 thing; "Why do they hate us?", anybody who doesn't already know is totally out of their element.

    Quote Originally Posted by IamSam View Post
    which didn't have anything to do with what was being said.
    It's totally relevant. Unless you want to argue that right and wrong are completely subjective and we can just apply rules when it suits us, but the intellectual culture, and the prevailing tendency of the international community would seem to disagree. You can't honestly condemn the Iranian government without acknowledging: 1. That the United States is responsible for creating this situation in Iran, where this can happen. 2. That the United States has, does, and continues to commit, support (directly or indirectly), or enable similar acts. Otherwise you're being dishonest. I mean, it's not very courageous or impressive to sit there and blame the other guy, thats' very easy, the real test is to what degree we're able to look in the mirror, and hold ourselves to these standards. This is also the best way to lead, by example. In short, we'd be in a much better position to criticize human rights abuses if we weren't so involved in commiting or enabling them, elsewhere, that makes it sort of meaningless.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by NGNM85 View Post
    This is part of the problem with American political discourse, and the broader ulture in general, complex ideas can't always be condensed to a sound bite, thus nothing really gets communicated and people get dumber by the generation. Thats' why we have the 'birthers' or this 'death panel' nonsense. None of these people have the most basic grasp of what they're talking about.
    That's not the point. I was trying to get him to answer the question so I could follow up with a second question thereby trapping him in his own words. You and I actually have a lot in common, however I don't prattle on and act higher and mightier than others.

    Quote Originally Posted by NGNM85 View Post
    I find that difficult to believe. Even if it's true that puts you in a minority, statistics show Americans' are pathetically uneducated when it comes to history and world politics, thats' part of why theres' so much confusion. One doesn't often hear about Reagan supporting death squads in South America, thats' relegated to the dustbin of history, so how can people actually understand what makes Hugo Chavez tick? It's like the post-9/11 thing; "Why do they hate us?", anybody who doesn't already know is totally out of their element.
    Well asshole, I'm in your minority. Before painting someone into a corner, why don't you learn a little about them first? I am proud of my education and my drive that got me to this point. Quit being a dick and realize that it might be possible that people around here may know exactly what you're talking about. Some of us aren't fresh out of high school around here. Understood?

    Quote Originally Posted by NGNM85 View Post
    It's totally relevant. Unless you want to argue that right and wrong are completely subjective and we can just apply rules when it suits us, but the intellectual culture, and the prevailing tendency of the international community would seem to disagree. You can't honestly condemn the Iranian government without acknowledging: 1. That the United States is responsible for creating this situation in Iran, where this can happen. 2. That the United States has, does, and continues to commit, support (directly or indirectly), or enable similar acts. Otherwise you're being dishonest. I mean, it's not very courageous or impressive to sit there and blame the other guy, thats' very easy, the real test is to what degree we're able to look in the mirror, and hold ourselves to these standards. This is also the best way to lead, by example. In short, we'd be in a much better position to criticize human rights abuses if we weren't so involved in commiting or enabling them, elsewhere, that makes it sort of meaningless.
    No. It wasn't relevant. I wasn't talking to you, nor was anyone asking for a history lesson about all the bad things the USA has done in the past. We, or I, was/were trying to get to the bottom of sipptaroowsky's rant.

    You just like hearing yourself speak/reading what you type.
    "There are no fools more bothersome than those with wit"

  8. #48
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    NGM, dude, you'd get your point across a lot easier if you weren't so condescending.
    Last edited by jacknife737; 09-08-2009 at 11:31 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Gabel
    Adrenaline carried one last thought to fruition.
    Let this be the end.
    Let this be the last song.
    Let this be the end.
    Let all be forgiven.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by IamSam View Post
    That's not the point. I was trying to get him to answer the question so I could follow up with a second question thereby trapping him in his own words.

    ...We, or I, was/were trying to get to the bottom of sipptaroowsky's rant.
    Well, in all fairness I can't be responsible for being aware of the plan. I've been elsewhere for some time and I just looked at the most recent posts and..the rest is history. I didn't think his statement was that inflammatory, ill-informed as it may have been. I wouldn't say I "like" Iran, at least not it's government, but they are probably one of the most culturally modern nations in the region. There is a substantial movement in Iran that is very open and curious about western culture. Iran is also in a very dangerous position, with very serious threats from both America and Israel, that’s’ just sort of a basic truism. If it makes you feel any better I excoriated this guy after a very stupid post on the abortion thread which leads me to the conclusion he is, in fact, a moron. I didn't realize it was the same guy until later.

    Quote Originally Posted by IamSam View Post
    You and I actually have a lot in common, however I don't prattle on and act higher and mightier than others.
    ..........."Act"?

    Quote Originally Posted by IamSam View Post
    Well asshole, I'm in your minority. Before painting someone into a corner, why don't you learn a little about them first?
    I could try a little harder, but it's impossible to do this all the time. I'd die of exhaustion.

    Quote Originally Posted by IamSam View Post
    I am proud of my education and my drive that got me to this point.
    So am I.

    Quote Originally Posted by IamSam View Post
    Quit being a dick
    No promises.

    Quote Originally Posted by IamSam View Post
    and realize that it might be possible that people around here may know exactly what you're talking about.
    ....Theoretically.

    Quote Originally Posted by IamSam View Post
    Some of us aren't fresh out of high school around here. Understood?
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by IamSam View Post
    No. It wasn't relevant. I wasn't talking to you, nor was anyone asking for a history lesson about all the bad things the USA has done in the past.
    It's definitely relevant. You can't make a value judgment on another nations' foreign/domestic policy without factoring in your own. This is something that, as I said, is expunged from our political discourse, so it's important to bring it up, regardless. Also, it's not just directed at you, but anybody who might be watching. If I'm engaging in debate, I'm not just thinking about the person in front of me, it's just as much for anybody who might be in earshot.

    Quote Originally Posted by IamSam View Post
    You just like hearing yourself speak/reading what you type.
    Guilty as charged. (I also kept my responses concise.)

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