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Thread: I Have A Confession To Make

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  1. #1
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    Default I Have A Confession To Make

    BBS, I have a confession to make: I actually don't like talking about politics.

    Yes, I care about the stuff we have data on (not conspiracy theories, but established and well-documented facts), and I have positions on a bunch of issues. But I really don't enjoy talking about them that much, and I really, REALLY don't give a shit what other people think about them, unless we're having a respectful and constructive discussion where we're both exchanging facts and ideas. I don't enjoy fighting about it and I'm really not interested in mudslinging or name-calling (though title-brandishing I'm fine with; if you want to call me a liberal, for example, then that's fine, but I generally expect some kind of rationale behind why my position is necessarily bad or wrong, not just that it's liberal or conservative), so whenever that starts, I tend to either duck out or convert to troll mode.

    However, I also can't stand sitting by and listening to people when even I can tell that they have no idea what they're talking about. Half the time, when I get in arguments with people on facebook (or internet forums, this one technically included but only very rarely, as I actually respect most of the posters here in a way that I don't respect others elsewhere), I don't even entirely know what we're talking about, but I can tell instinctively that the other guy is full of shit, and so I say things and ask questions in a precise, incisive manner --- not to change his/her mind or persuade him/her of my position, but to demonstrate to the world what a fucking nimrod they are, and how baseless their righteous self-confidence is. I might even say things that aren't true sometimes, sometimes as an honest mistake but usually just to piss them off (though usually I will admit it to them if it's an honest mistake). And you know what? They never even notice. They accept the falsehood I've declared as if it's fact, and they keep arguing their position. That's how fucking stupid they are; I don't even know what we're talking about, and I may not know a lot about it but I know what's not true, and so my effort to make a point by being sarcastic/dishonest is completely lost.

    Does anyone else do this to any extent? Or am I some weird social anomaly that overthinks everything?
    "I'm sorry
    For all the things that I never did
    For all the places I never was
    For all the people I never stopped
    But there was nothing I could do...
    "

  2. #2
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    I have a hard time believing a lot of your sentiments here. You claim "For complete strangers, it's one thing; I can decide their opinions are irrelevant and tell them to fuck off. But if it's someone I like/respect, or if it's a common view in a place where I'm otherwise comfortable hanging out, it's difficult to keep listening to"... I doubt that the people you debate with here at the BBS, or the people you screencap and post on FB are people you like/respect... and you don't seem to post here much besides political stuff, which also goes for that FB group.

    The thing is, I agree with you in a lot of fundamental ways when it comes to politics, but I often stay out of conversations with you and have taken to avoid responding when I disagree, BECAUSE you get incredibly condescending and "I'm right; you're wrong" about it. You complain about other people trying to be superior, but that's in fact the same thing you do.

    If what you're saying is true - that you don't like talking about politics - then basically your entire goal in getting into these long-winded debates is to prove other people wrong and you right, which is kind of obnoxious and very arrogant.
    Quote Originally Posted by jsmak84 View Post
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    I just do bumpin in my trunk

  3. #3
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    Haven't really seen SM get condescending until the later stages of the argument when he's frustrated, so I wouldn't hold it against him too much.

    LM15self-righteous65.
    When they said "sit down", I stood up.

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    Speaking for myself, when I no longer care about having a conversation or certain type of conversation, I stop engaging in them...
    On a case-by-case basis, that's definitely true for me as well. But all too often I feel like the guy in this song; especially if it's someone I respect, or in a place where I don't want to draw a lot of attention to myself or make a huge scene over something (or especially if it's off-topic for that forum/place/time/etc.). I try to avoid discussing it altogether, but they just keep. Going. And. They're. So. Fucking. Wrong.

    For complete strangers, it's one thing; I can decide their opinions are irrelevant and tell them to fuck off. But if it's someone I like/respect, or if it's a common view in a place where I'm otherwise comfortable hanging out, it's difficult to keep listening to; it's like there's some internal bullshit detector I have that's just screaming at me, "SAY SOMETHING, you know you want to!!"
    "I'm sorry
    For all the things that I never did
    For all the places I never was
    For all the people I never stopped
    But there was nothing I could do...
    "

  5. #5
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    The only thing I hate more than political arguments is people being wrong about politics.
    I wrote a four word letter.

  6. #6
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    I hate arguing politics, with every fiber or my being. And I hate watching/hearing other people argue politics. In fact, I only venture into the politics forum once a week or so, because it drives me so batty. If people ever see me posting in relation to anything political, its merely me pointing something out and is hardly ever related to what actual my opinion on it is. There is never any room for debate with anybody when it comes to politics and it always degenerates into a bunch of people puffing up their chests, political emblem emblazoned on their foreheads. I'm so over the chicanery of it all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Little_Miss_1565 View Post
    Or what? Or you'll leave as soon as someone returns your rudeness and delete all your posts? I'm so scared.

  7. #7
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    If people ever see me posting in relation to anything political, its merely me pointing something out and is hardly ever related to what actual my opinion on it is. There is never any room for debate with anybody when it comes to politics and it always degenerates into a bunch of people puffing up their chests, political emblem emblazoned on their foreheads. I'm so over the chicanery of it all.
    See, that's the sort of arrangement I aspire to in principle....however, in practice it almost never works out that way. I agree whole-heartedly with your assessment of political debates, though. I enjoy discussing things, but it just seems like people are completely incapable of discussing things about which they have strong opinions. It's like their ability to separate their knee-jerk emotional responses from their reasoned beliefs renders them completely incapable of expressing their beliefs in a way that doesn't come off ass really egotistical and self-superior.
    "I'm sorry
    For all the things that I never did
    For all the places I never was
    For all the people I never stopped
    But there was nothing I could do...
    "

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little_Miss_1565 View Post
    And let's be real here, one of the two of us has had "customers" and it wasn't me.
    Oh snap!

  9. #9
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    You claim "For complete strangers, it's one thing; I can decide their opinions are irrelevant and tell them to fuck off. But if it's someone I like/respect, or if it's a common view in a place where I'm otherwise comfortable hanging out, it's difficult to keep listening to"... I doubt that the people you debate with here at the BBS, or the people you screencap and post on FB are people you like/respect
    You forgot that one part *immediately after* where I said:

    But if it's someone I like/respect, or if it's a common view in a place where I'm otherwise comfortable hanging out
    I like hanging out here, because it's one of the first forums I really started posting in regularly back in 2008, and I know a lot of the people here on FB and elsewhere. And yet, I've noticed we seem to get a lot of libertarian assholes who think every crime is punishable by death or life imprisonment, or who think that right to property is more important than right to life. I used to just kind of ignore them (in fact, I never posted in politics until a year or so after I started posting here), just because I wanted to avoid ruffling any feathers. The same goes for the FB groups I frequent --- at first I would just hang around and offer my occasional meager comment, but after seeing mountains of stupid people making indefensible/racist/sexist/religiously-bigoted comments, I just get tired of hearing it.

    but I often stay out of conversations with you and have taken to avoid responding when I disagree, BECAUSE you get incredibly condescending and "I'm right; you're wrong" about it. You complain about other people trying to be superior, but that's in fact the same thing you do.
    I feel more that an overwhelming majority of our political discussions are founded on you fundamentally misunderstanding what I'm saying. I can't count the number of times you've left a political comment on something I wrote that seemed to completely miss the point/not get the joke, and I had to explain what I really meant by it -- like one time I posted this political joke about foodservice workers not taking unpaid sick leave because they need the money (and it had the caption, "oh, look, our food is here!"), and you went on this rant about how people can take off sick if they want, when the point was that they don't get paid for taking off sick (and that their wages aren't very high to begin with). I really don't mean to be condescending, but sometimes I just feel like you're missing a really obvious point. Before I learned you were an English teacher, I used to wonder if there was some language barrier that I wasn't considering, that was making my comments harder for you to understand.

    Anyway, when discussing issues that are a matter of factual basis, someone is right and someone is wrong. I don't see anything condescending or arrogant about pointing that out. A lot of people I know seem to have this fundamental issue with facts existing, and with knowledge being affirmable; if someone says, "I don't believe in biological science," for instance, and I say, "well, you're wrong, because the only reason I'm alive today is because biological science works and is a legitimate field," would that be condescending? Or should I take care to consider his or her feelings and make sure they don't feel invalidated by the fact that they are wrong?

    I mean, if it's a really minor issue, I can understanding feeling overwhelmed if someone's being overly aggressive about it. But when we're discussing factual matters, how is it "condescending" to just state facts?

    If what you're saying is true - that you don't like talking about politics - then basically your entire goal in getting into these long-winded debates is to prove other people wrong and you right, which is kind of obnoxious and very arrogant.
    Well technically, my goal is (as I said):

    and so I say things and ask questions in a precise, incisive manner --- not to change his/her mind or persuade him/her of my position, but to demonstrate to the world what a fucking nimrod they are, and how baseless their righteous self-confidence is.
    Maybe it's just because I live in an IRL environment where, everywhere I go, everyone I meet (with a few very rare exceptions) is in complete opposition with everything I believe about everything --- the population of my neighborhood, my city, and my general area is very anti-science, anti-woman, pro-religion, pro-gun, Republican/libertarian, "the civil war ain't over yet, it's just half time" type of people. And so I've gotten very good at hiding my opinions about things, and I only really bring them up IRL if I feel like I'm being pushed into a corner, or someone is just really not letting it go. But every now and then, I just get this feeling like I am the only person in this entire state that is not a gun-toting, government-hating, science-denying asshole, and so I guess there's this hope deep down that, if I put this idiot in his/her place, then someone will see it and think, "hey, there are other people like me! I'm not crazy!"
    "I'm sorry
    For all the things that I never did
    For all the places I never was
    For all the people I never stopped
    But there was nothing I could do...
    "

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Static_Martyr View Post
    You forgot that one part *immediately after* where I said:



    I like hanging out here, because it's one of the first forums I really started posting in regularly back in 2008, and I know a lot of the people here on FB and elsewhere. And yet, I've noticed we seem to get a lot of libertarian assholes who think every crime is punishable by death or life imprisonment, or who think that right to property is more important than right to life. I used to just kind of ignore them (in fact, I never posted in politics until a year or so after I started posting here), just because I wanted to avoid ruffling any feathers. The same goes for the FB groups I frequent --- at first I would just hang around and offer my occasional meager comment, but after seeing mountains of stupid people making indefensible/racist/sexist/religiously-bigoted comments, I just get tired of hearing it.
    Fair enough if you really love the BBS and those other places, but the people you're debating with are new members here, or complete strangers in general - not people you've developed respect for through years of posting with. I get tired of reading their shit, too, and sometimes contribute to discussions until I see they're going nowhere and it's not at all a reasonable discussion. Then I move on because I know nothing is going to change due to the impasse.


    I feel more that an overwhelming majority of our political discussions are founded on you fundamentally misunderstanding what I'm saying. I can't count the number of times you've left a political comment on something I wrote that seemed to completely miss the point/not get the joke, and I had to explain what I really meant by it -- like one time I posted this political joke about foodservice workers not taking unpaid sick leave because they need the money (and it had the caption, "oh, look, our food is here!"), and you went on this rant about how people can take off sick if they want, when the point was that they don't get paid for taking off sick (and that their wages aren't very high to begin with). I really don't mean to be condescending, but sometimes I just feel like you're missing a really obvious point. Before I learned you were an English teacher, I used to wonder if there was some language barrier that I wasn't considering, that was making my comments harder for you to understand.
    Wow, this was a very condescending way of trying to prove you're not condescending. The waiter situation was a misunderstanding because, amidst the other posts you'd been making, I inferred that you were upset about an inability to take off work. Considering your response included the fact that many jobs you've had didn't allow you to call in unless you found your own replacement, and you clearly were upset about that, I'd take it that I wasn't wrong - it just perhaps wasn't your original point. This is only one example, though, and not the one that came to mind. There have been plenty of other situations where you've posted things that basically attack anyone with ANY libertarian beliefs or agnostic feelings regarding religion. When you complained about people who are against labeling, you didn't seem to really listen to my side. You basically reposted your same argument over and over again until I just gave up. I understood what your side was, and tried to make concessions on that, but your very firm, "people who don't like labels are idiots" stance was just too much. This plays into how you do attack people with a label - constantly.

    Anyway, when discussing issues that are a matter of factual basis, someone is right and someone is wrong. I don't see anything condescending or arrogant about pointing that out. A lot of people I know seem to have this fundamental issue with facts existing, and with knowledge being affirmable; if someone says, "I don't believe in biological science," for instance, and I say, "well, you're wrong, because the only reason I'm alive today is because biological science works and is a legitimate field," would that be condescending? Or should I take care to consider his or her feelings and make sure they don't feel invalidated by the fact that they are wrong?
    First of all, a lot of the stuff you get into is not factual. A lot of it is, in fact, theoretical and philosophical. Second of all, there are condescending and non-condescending ways to disagree with people - even regarding facts where they're simply wrong. You do seem to opt for the condescending most of the time. Third of all, there is no POINT in arguing with people who say stuff like, "I don't believe in biological science." Fine, they ignore a reality that exists. I know someone who doesn't believe in evolution. So what? She doesn't push it on me or anyone else. If she did, I wouldn't be her friend and I'd remove her from my life. We've had a couple reasonable conversations about it - very respectful, I never once told her she was wrong, but that I disagreed - and we moved on. I also used to have a very close friend (with whom I've grown apart due to distance) who is a Republican. We used to enjoy a calm, reasonable discussion about politics. We disagreed in many ways, but there was never once an instance of, "You're wrong!" being thrown around. I may think he's wrong about stuff, and he may think I am. But we're both hard-working folks who just want to do right and have a good life. He's not a bad person, so why would I want to try to show him that he's a "fucking nimrod"? And if it's not somebody I respect or want to talk to in the first place, then there's zero point in engaging like that.

    Maybe it's just because I live in an IRL environment where, everywhere I go, everyone I meet (with a few very rare exceptions) is in complete opposition with everything I believe about everything --- the population of my neighborhood, my city, and my general area is very anti-science, anti-woman, pro-religion, pro-gun, Republican/libertarian, "the civil war ain't over yet, it's just half time" type of people. And so I've gotten very good at hiding my opinions about things, and I only really bring them up IRL if I feel like I'm being pushed into a corner, or someone is just really not letting it go. But every now and then, I just get this feeling like I am the only person in this entire state that is not a gun-toting, government-hating, science-denying asshole, and so I guess there's this hope deep down that, if I put this idiot in his/her place, then someone will see it and think, "hey, there are other people like me! I'm not crazy!"
    Again, there are so many ways to accomplish this without being condescending. I know other liberals who live in places like Mississippi and Georgia and such... they don't hide their beliefs, but they also don't put other people down or feel like they have to "put this idiot in his/her place". I don't see how you don't realize how condescending that is.

    Anyway, I'm sure you will respond with a very long post, which is fine, but I don't know that I care enough about this situation to discuss it more. We shall see. Just know that if I don't respond, it's not that I'm mad or offended or anything. This is just evolving into another tl;dr, like so many others.
    Quote Originally Posted by jsmak84 View Post
    I do not drink alcohol and coffee

    I do not smoke and do not do drugs

    I just do bumpin in my trunk

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