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Thread: Do you believe that the capitalist mode of production is unjust?

  1. #1
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    Default Do you believe that the capitalist mode of production is unjust?

    Is it just me being ignorant, or is this question often avoided by most leftists, particularly in public discourse? There are numerous reasons that a person can hold the belief that a more equitable distribution of wealth is preferable, but I've noticed that people shy away from stating that capitalists have obtained much of their wealth through worker exploitation inherent in the capitalist system. For all the people that support a progressive tax system, how many of them support it simply because they think that the capitalist class doesn't deserve much of the money they have?
    Last edited by bighead384; 08-04-2013 at 01:06 PM.
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    However much you have amassed in wealth, be it $10,000,000,000 or $10.00, there is someone who has less. Now that we have deduced that you have more than someone else, go give your money away to someone who may or may not deserve it. That's your choice. Don't force it on others. Free will allows a person to work or not work. If you think you are being taken advantage of, quit. Running a business and making it successful is very hard and very risky. You could lose everything you have ever worked for and mortgaged to make the business operate. Being employed has no risk beyond the next check you may or may not get. Those who risk get rewarded more than those that don't. Get it? It ain't complicated. Forget about inherited wealth...it isn't even worth discussing. You worried about not getting your "fair" share? Fuck you, go work harder and smarter than the next guy. Can't do it cause it takes all your time and cuts into your bar hours? Fuck you, you lose, don't bitch. You have the same chance as anyone, you screw it up, tough shit. Were you born retarded? No? Then you had the same chance as anyone. Go get rich. You want someone elses spoils just because you were too lazy to get educated...don't care. People worry too much about the other the guy and how they can get a piece of his action for themselves without working for it. How about worrying about yourself for a minute, quit fucking around and blaming others for your own short comings and do your best. Want to be rich? Pay attention to what rich people do. Being poor is not forced upon anyone.

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    My feelings on our current system are pretty adequately summed up by this quotation from this article (which is lengthy, but definitely worth a read):

    The promises of modernity regarding progress, freedom and hope have not been eliminated; they have been reconfigured, stripped of their emancipatory potential and relegated to the logic of a savage market instrumentality. Modernity has reneged on its promise to young people to provide social mobility, stability and collective security. Long-term planning and the institutional structures that support them are now relegated to the imperatives of privatization, deregulation, flexibility and short-term profits. Social bonds have given way under the collapse of social protections and the attack on the welfare state. Moreover, all solutions to socially produced problems are now relegated to the mantra of individual solutions.

    Public problems collapse into the limited and depoliticized register of private issues. Individual interests now trump any consideration of the good of society just as all problems are ultimately laid at the door of the solitary individual, whose fate is shaped by forces far beyond his or her capacity for personal responsibility. Under neoliberalism everyone has to negotiate their fate alone, bearing full responsibility for problems that are often not of their own doing. The implications politically, economically and socially for young people are disastrous and are contributing to the emergence of a generation of young people who will occupy a space of social abandonment and terminal exclusion. Job insecurity, debt servitude, poverty, incarceration and a growing network of real and symbolic violence have entrapped too many young people in a future that portends zero opportunities and zero hopes. This is a generation that has become the new register for disposability, redundancy, and new levels of surveillance and control.
    The idea is that we are supposed to adopt this faulty, overly-simplistic view of how the world works, that is packaged in a market-centric framework; and if something happens within this framework that does not fit our oversimplified model of how the world works, then it's assumed to be because somebody, somewhere, isn't sticking to the model closely enough, and we should blame and shame that person (similar to a religious cult, where all of the world's problems are assumed to stem from the fact that everyone outside the cult is "corrupted" and doesn't acknowledge the "true god," and so all problems are assumed a priori to come from outside of the belief system; critical analysis of the belief system from within is strictly forbidden -- capitalism is often portrayed this way by the more economically libertarian, in that if you question it, you are written off as someone who "hates freedom" or "is a soshulist").

    Also, we're expected to accept full "personal responsibility" for things that we ultimately have no control over -- things we may influence the probability of, such as the decision of someone else to hire or fire us, but that ultimately remain in someone else's hands. Our society at this point is largely a lottery in many ways, and yet if we don't succeed absolutely, then it's assumed that we didn't learn how to game the system enough -- the point of this philosophy being that people who are amoral and who are willing to step on others and grab power whenever the opportunity presents itself are somehow inherently more moral than others, because hey, they're self-absorbed sociopaths who only care about money, but at least they're *successful* ("might equals right"), while people who are more social and express concern for others are written off as "pussies" and "soshulists" and never given a legitimate hearing.

    tl;dr = our society's expectations are a lot like buying one lottery ticket, and then assuming that the result of that ticket is an accurate reflection of your worth as a human being.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bighead384 View Post
    Is it just me being ignorant, or is this question often avoided by most leftists, particularly in public discourse?
    Presumably you are only talking about the US?

    Capitalism has become this sacred thing in the US. I'm not sure when it started but I'd assume it reached its height during the Cold War, particularly during the McCarthy era. Communists were the enemy, clear and simple, which meant that if you questioned capitalism you were not a good American. You were a sympathizer of the enemy, possibly even a full-blown traitor. Some degree of this remains in your national psyche today. A politician could never get elected if he/she expressed a lack of faith in the basic principles of capitalism, any more than an open atheist could get elected. Other public leftists with no intention of running for office, pundits perhaps, are also likely to avoid criticizing the basic principles of capitalism for fear of looking too extreme and marginalizing themselves.

    Sadly, the US has a real problem with "Joe the Plumber" types. People who actually suffer at the hands of capitalism but somehow buy into the right-wing bullshit. They're manipulated by the 1% into actually thinking that it's right for basically all the wealth to be in their hands alone. They're manipulated into thinking anyone can break out of the 99% any time they want to if they just work hard. So you end up with a nation where the actual workers actively vote against their own interests and won't listen to the "liberal elite" who are trying to help them because Fox News told them that's for Muslim faggot Jews.

    Hell, we've even got our own Joe the Plumber right here on the message board for a (arguably) punk band! He's so obviously a Joe the Plumber it's almost painful to watch.
    Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Bill Hicks

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    Capitalism isn't bad. It's the best way to create wealth. It becomes a bad thing when some people start to get so much money it's not even real. Money they won't be able to spend in a lifetime... or in 5 generations lifetims. It becomes a really bad thing when other people don't have enough money to live.

    That's the same thing with communism. Communism ? Excellent idea. But you also need to create wealth.

    Capitalism is a good concept as long as you add a pinch (and a big one) of socialism.

    Moto> Taking a risk ? ok... but what about the bosses of huge companies who are paid incredible amounts of money when really, they are just employees ... and they don't care about being fired because they negotiate goooood money for when they are actually fired ? Where is the risk in that ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harleyquiiinn View Post

    Capitalism is a good concept as long as you add a pinch (and a big one) of socialism.
    I'd rather have socialism with a pinch of capitalism, but yeah, what you said works too.

    I don't really understand though why you seem to be saying wealth is essential?
    Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Bill Hicks

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paint_It_Black View Post
    I'd rather have socialism with a pinch of capitalism, but yeah, what you said works too.

    I don't really understand though why you seem to be saying wealth is essential?
    I actually agree with you on that one

    Basically, there is no point sharing if you don't have anything to share. That is why you need a system that can create wealth for the population. If you don't, you end up with unhappy people that will try to kill you so you have to put them in labour camp and when that doesn't work, everybody hates you for a few centuries saying that you were the worst system ever. And communism becomes an insult

    Anyway, that's where I reach the limit of my english (and I'm tired... it's sunday afternoon and it's way too hot)...

    By the way, since you came back, did I tell you I met a scottish guy named like Dumbledore in Glencoe last may ? Amazing how many people have that name...
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    Here's one example of what I mean:

    "I think it's good for everyone when you spread the wealth around" - Obama

    Here, Obama is justifying his progressive tax systems with an economic view based on the idea that when wealth distribution is more equitable, it's better for the overall economy. Furthermore, Obama has come on in support of measures that help to ensure equal payment for women as a result of the discrimination that women face.

    But why is it so rare to see a public figure simply state that capitalists have obtained much of their wealth unjustly, through an inherently flawed system?
    When they said "sit down", I stood up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harleyquiiinn View Post
    Basically, there is no point sharing if you don't have anything to share. That is why you need a system that can create wealth for the population.
    Ah, well I guess it all depends what you mean by "wealth" then. I can't remember, do you like Star Trek? I like to believe that a society like we see in Star Trek is possible. They have plenty of things to share, they just don't need currency.

    But yeah, real word, present day, I believe we're in agreement.

    Ha, no, I don't believe you did mention your Scottish Dumbledore before.
    Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Bill Hicks

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    Basically, there is no point sharing if you don't have anything to share. That is why you need a system that can create wealth for the population.
    Exactly that is the purpose of capitalism. Items are brought to market for profit. People can own property. In this system, individual people also benefits because workers received salary for their own according to the types of job unlike in communism you can't own any property. So, capitalism is better than communism.

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